I have heard a lot of conflicting opinions on point of diminishing return of espresso quality. the more common opinion is that one you reach around $2000 (debatable), you don't get much better in espresso quality. You pay for brand, build quality, look, support. Another less common opinion, but (usually) swore by the ones who own the fancy machines - GS3, Slayer etc. etc., is that they can pull better shot of espressos with those eye watering expensive machines, and it's not even close. What's your take on this? What was machine that pulled the best espresso for you, to date? Is it just slightly better than others, or it's not even close?

@"delta76"#p52403 - it’s not all about espresso machines. It’s also a lot about the grinder, the water and the coffee beans themselves. You can have the best coffee machine. If you use a rubbish grinder, your coffee won’t be great. Is there a point of diminishing returns? Maybe. Is it easy to put a monetary value to it? I don’t think so.

You can make good espresso with a flair and hand grinder and go up from there Once you get past a price point you are paying for repeatability, reliability, ease of use. Everyone's situation is different as are the beans they drink. Imo it's easier to get good espresso from med/dark beans than it is med/light were better temp control comes in. But it's not just the machine Water plays a massive role, then there's baskets, shit ratios. Classic and modern espresso

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p52404 I am assuming same water, same grinder and same coffee, dialed in for each machine. If Home Barista blind tests are something trustworthy I would say the former opinion is proven, where we saw prosumer machines compete quite squarely to high end commercial ones, sometimes even had an edge. Of course you can't make 60 espresso or more an hour consistently with a prosumer, with minimal prep, but that is beside the point (espresso quality) But also many, even here, saying otherwise :).

@"delta76"#1185 I think you have a point, not sure what the price point is but imo it would probably be about what you suggested. I don’t know if I could tell the difference between an espresso from a Gaggia Classic or my Bianca tbh, but the Bianca is probably more consistent and easier 🤷 to get a good shot from 👌

The most important point is the individuals coffee skills. Forget baskets, tampers, distributors and all the rest…..they just tweak……If you think of a coffee machine as an oven, then you might have the most expensive oven in the world, but if you put in the cheapest steak you can find, once cooked it does not come out as fillet. Only a few people have really sensitive tastebuds. Of course a lot of folk can detect subteleties and that is what all these expensive tools do. If you lined up 6 x 58 mm machines in a blind taste test, no one would be able to identify them. If then throw in a lever you will detect changes. If you then drop in a 54mm group you will detect changes. Going back to the oven analogy, the grinder for me is more important than the machine. All the must have accessories the influencers push are just income generators resulting in folks posting shot prep videos where they go to extraordinary lengths, but give us all a chuckle! I cannot find the original video now, but this is a re-post of an influencer getting just deserts…..I found it very funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwzEpNziOU

There are so many good second hand espresso machines. Good as new and built like tanks. People get upgradeitis and sell their 2y old perfect machines for half of new. Start there!

@"dfk41"#p52431 In my younger days, I wouldn't have ever seen, heard or met anyone like that. As I got older I would have switched off or walked away, Now before I switch off or walk away, I think he Really should see an optician and perhaps stop wearing those contact lenses, as all I could notice was those angry red corners interspersed with the chipolata lips flapping about. After a few minutes, I really couldn't hear/makeout what she was saying any more…..must be old age?

@"DavecUK"#p52443 I read somewhere that the hotel sent her a bill for 5k….not sure what for but I thought she represented red eyed entitled influencers very well

@"Grahamsphillips"#p52442 not the question I asked though. I sent a video idea suggestion to James, asking if he can blind test in tell espressos made by machines in different price ranges apart. Seems like he is the right person to do that test. He is both very skilled as a barista, and has great taste bud (based on his blind tests). It is unlikely he will pick that idea, but we will see.

@"delta76"#p52445 don’t think it’s that simple. Apart from, what’s already been said… let’s pick 3 machines: ECM Synchronika, Lelit Bianca, Profitec 500 and an ACS Vesuvius. Now, they have very distinguished set of features. It would be silly to just say “hey, let’s just brew at 9 bar straight” because then why would you bother picking one over the other. The idea is that a machine with more features can give better control or choices on how you extract the coffee - whether it’s temperature, flow or pressure. It can be compared, but in my opinion it’s a silly one. By all means, if you want to compare machines sporting the exact same features, then that seems sensible (say, Gaggia Classic vs Rancilio Silvia) or Synchronika vs a Pro-700 vs QuickMill Verona).

Espresso quality - Point of Diminishing Return

dutchy101

dfk41

That video is amazing hahaga

delta76

MediumRoastSteam the test could be done with default settings, except for adjusted temp and pressure if it is not 9 bars (which is, surprisingly, how most people use their machines). I have seen quite many claim that their fancy new machine can immediately make better shots than their old (yet very good) machines, which are supposedly tinkered to their best liking. If those claims have any merit is what I am curious ahout

MediumRoastSteam

delta76 the test could be done with default settings, except for adjusted temp and pressure if it is not 9 bars (which is, surprisingly, how most people use their machines)

You are missing the point. The point I’m trying to make is precise the opposite of what are you trying to test: Why would you buy a Vesuvius, or a Bianca, to run at 9 bar flat? What I’m saying is that it’s just plain “silly” to compare the Bianca with default settings and the Vesuvius with default settings, whatever they are - if the whole idea is to explore the features the machines offer (e.g.: low flow/high flow/profiling on the Bianca, pressure profiling on the Vesuvius).

It’s a silly comparison. For instance, would you buy a Decent to run shots 9 bar flat? No you would not.

Cuprajake

MediumRoastSteam why would you buy a kafatec conical for dark roast ?

You see many of these grinders next to say lmlm or Micra, and you could argue the above

But I understand what you are saying

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam Could you run a shot on the Vesuvius…….any format you like for the blind tester to say, ’thats a Vesuvius starting at 9 bar for 12 seconds deducing to 6 bar for the next 20 seconds though?

delta76

There are only a few people actively use the flow / pressure profile. Most people buy machines without and many never bother use it after the honeymoon period.

MediumRoastSteam

delta76 - never mind. A comparison between machines with settings out of the box is possible if that’s what you want to compare - personally I don’t see the value, but that’s me.

MediumRoastSteam

delta76 and flow control, which is universally agreed that has biggest impact on espresso quality

Yet… As you said on another post, most people use for the first week and then forget all about it. 😀

delta76 There are only a few people actively use the flow / pressure profile. Most people buy machines without and many never bother use it after the honeymoon period.

For me the good thing about the Bianca is not the flow control valve - I’m not really interested in that. But I am interested in the slow/fast flow at the start and the express warm up time.

Dusk

I’ve had a coffee from a Kees Van Der Westen machine which is worth £20k but I’ve made better tasting coffee at home. I think as with cooking, quality ingredients and skill are the most important thing.

And when it comes to people buying expensive machines, sometimes it’s just nice to have nice things even if you don’t use them to their full potential (like a lot of people with fast cars).

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 - yes. But the point of this discussion is cost and diminishing returns. What if that’s not the best the Vesuvius could do? Would you then say the machine is not better than machine “X” because machine X at 2/3rd of the cost produced a better shot? What if there’s a different profile on the V which is worth every penny so to speak?

That’s my point.

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam What if there’s a different profile on the V which is worth every penny so to speak?

Then that would be just another opinion

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 Then that would be just another opinion

Isn’t the perception of taste just an opinion in itself? As in, two machines (e.g.: ECM Synchronika and Lelit Bianca), one shot from each with their “default” settings. The result is that the Bianca makes a better shot. Isn’t that in itself an opinion?

delta76

MediumRoastSteam that is when we need blind test. bigger sample size and more trained tasters are, the better the result is.

I am leaning toward that in the default settings with basic adjustments machines after a price point will taste the same. or maybe, different, not better, just different. but I’m interested to hear about it.

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam Not really otherwise nothing would be fact, unless issued as a judgement by a Judge. The original point I was making, was if you categorised machines (Ignoring profiling machines) then what makes a person buy the machine they do over a n other one. The usual answer is a combination of looks and perception of others. A normal E61 HX, brand a ought to no better than brand b. You then start throwing in other factors like size of group head, dual boilers etc. Can a decent barista make just as good single shot on a Gaggia Classic as a machine costing twice as much? You bet but he will not be able to make 2, which brings us back to putting machines into categories with opponents of similar ilk. Once you step beyond the boundaries you move into another category with more features, some will affect taste and some will not.

How many dual boiler owners do we have who do not drink milk, as an example. How many people buy a machine by declaring a budget then looking at what they can get within that (but nearer the top end than bottom)? How many people make a list of what they want from a machine and buy accordingly? I bet that that is a short list!

Cuprajake

there is no better only personal preference

Cuprajake

its not as easy as the question,

you could make 15 shots on the same machine and if the machine was identical everytime they would still differ due to coffee and grinder

there are too many variables

dfk41

Cuprajake Without question that is correct Jake. So many things coffee related are about splitting the atom. It is impossible for anyone to say ’this is the best coffee machine (or most temperature stable) in the world, so to answer @delta76 Cuprajake Without question that is correct Jake. So many things coffee related are about splitting the atom. It is impossible for anyone to say ’this is the best coffee machine (or most temperature stable) in the world, so to answer @Delta 76, is do not worry about it and but what you fancy. @Grahamsphillips summed it up nicely saying buy second hand and let the original owner take the hit

delta76

dfk41 as I mentioned, I am not interested in “best espresso machine”, rather than if generally, significantly more expensive machines can make noticeable better espresso than a cheaper one, after a price point.

Cuprajake so be it. if you make 10 espressos on each machine, using same bean, same water, identical grinders dialed to each machine, two comparably skilled barista, then you give it to 10 trained tasters. (nothing prevents you from doing it with even larger set, like 20, 30, but then it’s very difficult to arrange such event)

if the score is 10:0, 9:1 or 8:2, it’s statistically significant to say machine A makes better espressos than machine B.

if 7:3 or less then there are no clear winner.

you can’t always eliminate variables all , but in trials you try to control as many factors as possible.

Waitforme

Cuprajake

I think Jake nailed it in the third post …

Cuprajake Once you get past a price point you are paying for repeatability, reliability, ease of use.

I’ve a Bianca but I very rarely have a milk based coffee and rarely use the flow control. But it’s easy to use , looks good imo, wasn’t too 🤔expensive and should see me out.

You can make a sow’s ear out of a silk purse when making coffee is concerned.

But as alluded to above, above a certain price then the coffee probably isn’t going to taste much better.

Cuprajake

cant control a coffee bean

i understand what you are trying to get at, but sadly its not that simple

grinder is far more important than the coffee machine, second to that is the person using it and what they want to do

if a person came on and asked to recommend a machine to make a household 5 milk drinks in a row, im recommending a dual boiler, like wise is someone wants a single espresso morning and one at night im recommending a Puristika.

have a watch of that

delta76

Cuprajake that’s the acceptable variable, and one or two bean can’t make up to all the differences, if any

What I laid out is the concept. depends on how much you want to try, a quick dirty test with a few friends, a public shout out or a strict research, you can design the test to remove as many variables as possible. there is no such thing as absolute in applied physics, let alone something that perceived by taste as espresso, but we can definitely come up to a objective conclusion, after all.

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