This year looks to be a good one for Host Milan. I've had a quick look round while ACS is setting up. I have already seen the ECM stand a This year looks to be a good one for host Milan. I've had a quick look round while ACS is setting up. And have already seen the ECM stand and La Marzoccob; plus a new induction prosumer machine from a manufacturer I don't know. Will bring more news on this in later days. The ACS stand this year is looking really sharp, it's a big improvement on previous years stands. For this reason I will Only take a picture once it's fully set up. We actually drove all night to get to Milan from Naples. It took us a very long time and we didn't get any sleep. Arrived at about 10 am the morning and started setting up straight away. I'm sure we will all sleep very well tonight.

Induction heater or mistype of introduction?

@"Loonster"#p54631 Induction heating

@"DavecUK"#p54632 All prosumers are using resistive heating I suppose? Wonder if there is any benefit of induction heating. Maybe they just want to be different

> @"delta76"#p54634 Wonder if there is any benefit of induction heating. Maybe they just want to be different There is no benefit and it's not as efficient. The induction efficiency thing is usually vs gas cookers which waste a lot of heat. A heating element immersed in water it very efficient in comparison. As always though, it depends on the specific implementation.

@"DavecUK"#p54637, internal heating elements are nearly 100% efficient. Induction heaters are around 84% for stoves. Maybe a little higher for an espresso machine. I will also assume that the exterior of the tank is the induction element. This would make the machine also have higher standby losses (higher delta T). Maybe it is about speed of heating? The surface area of the induction element might be bigger. It would be interesting to see the volume size of the boiler in relation to the wattage of the heater. Or maybe it is hysteresis? I'm just guessing plausible reasons. Very curious to the reasons. It's likely more expensive, so wouldn't do it without a good reason.

@"Loonster"#p54645 my best is that so they can market it as new and exciting. Not necessary a pro from technical standpoint Prosumer market is so saturated now so new players need something new to enter and set a foothold

@"delta76"#p54649 For sure? There is an Additional level of complexity for using an induction heater. This just potentially gives more to go wrong than just using a standard /long life heating element and probably a lot more expensive to replace or repair some of the electronics. I said before heating elements are 100% efficient. When immersed in water in the boiler. And sometimes just no need to try and "improve" on these things.

ACS stand looking really good. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/MgAvmQH.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MgAvmQH.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/HzC8XkQ.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/HzC8XkQ.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/UHKC20v.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/UHKC20v.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/jYarAPC.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/jYarAPC.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

https://youtu.be/WCsyvB3EfT8?si=bQsL20ryv8N_WGM_

@"DavecUK"#p54688 neat. how much is the vostok 1 group btw, can't seem to find its price

Host Milan 2023

BrendaninBrooklyn

delta76

I understand your view; my point is that could easily be reversed such as Lelit needs to innovate and catch up with ECM internal layout and access, because while some users may care about a specific feature, all users must care about maintenance. It really is all tradeoffs, and that makes it a more interesting horse race.

I’m interested in meaningful, substantial innovation. ECM seems to favor longer product cycles versus Lelit’s rapid iterations. Both approaches are valid, but neither are Decent ;-)

delta76

BrendaninBrooklyn that is rather forced view. No company is doing that, coffee or otherwise. Some minor revisions to fix bugs or to cut cost, maybe, but major refactoring is very unlikely. And nobody would call it innovations. Definitely not by end users.

And nobody says Bianca internal layout is bad for service or longevity. It is more than adequate. Yes it is not as beauty as Synchronika yes but one big reason is Bianca is considerably smaller in size. I do wish for a better build Bianca but that has nothing to do with innovations

Cuprajake

half of the info in reviews seems to be wrong, go to people who use the machine day in and day out

BrendaninBrooklyn

Cuprajake

I agree – these were user reviews ;-) mainly from reddit, H-B. and likely half are wrong.

I prefer tech specs from the manufacturer when they are published, and user reviews for workflow, ergonomics, reliability and such. I wish there was a well-informed, non-commercial source of lab reviews but the market is too small to support one.

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn I wish there was a well-informed, non-commercial source of lab reviews but the market is too small to support one.

Perhaps I’d better start reviewing stuff again then, because the influencers are useless for that.

BrendaninBrooklyn

delta76

My comment was ironic; sorry if that did not come across. I think Lelit build quality is fine. Although ECM have an excellent reputation in this regard, I sincerely doubt there is much or any difference between them. What I am referring to is layout and mechanical design. Size is a tradeoff – there’s no getting past it. One either goes larger or has less room. However the way the ECM disassembles is really good.

delta76

BrendaninBrooklyn the test by a reputable reviewer with proper measurement (kaffemacher) is 17 minutes for Bianca, and 35 or 37 minutes for Synchronika. Based on PID information it is even faster, but if you rely on objective measurements, that is what we have. And if i remember correctly v3 has faster startup time. That is innovation in my book.

Anyway, this argument has been dragging for quite long without any real benefit. It is commonly accepted that Lelit is playing the innovating game, while ECM is playing it safe. You are free to think what approach is better. I don’t think we need to argue about that.

BrendaninBrooklyn

delta76

I accept your data, although Lelit claims otherwise. I dispute “playing safe”, rather that both firms have different product lifecycles and there are advantages to both, for customers as well as customers. I didn’t realize we were arguing; rather thought we were having a conversation. Thanks for sharing your views and information.

delta76

BrendaninBrooklyn different wording - ECM has some great products and they keep them (almost) as-is since released. They released anthracite version recently and that’s only thing “new”. You can call it however you like, it’s “playing it safe” in my book. Some call it “already perfection” - and I’m fine with that (not necessarily agree with, but fine). Lelit on other hand is taking risks and investing money in “how we can add new, useful features with smallest changes”. As I said, you can like either, both or none, and it’s all fine.

It’s not my data, I’m relying information from Lelit Bianca V3 im Espresso-Test (kaffeemacher.ch) and ECM Synchronika Test (kaffeemacher.ch). I think they share my views (or rather, I share theirs regarding synchronika) in the conclusion. (Reminder - I came this close from buying a Synchronika, so I don’t hate it, quite the opposite. ). In actual usage though, I did the test and my Bianca is ready in 14 minutes for 93 C . @Cuprajake did same test for 96*C and it’s a little more than 12 minutes. note that this is the PID information - it is when the PID “thinks” the machine is ready for desired temperature - it’s not exactly scientific nor accurate. Take that as you will.

BrendaninBrooklyn

delta76

That’s impressive performance and thanks for the link, one I’ve not come across. I’d not now purchase any E61 DB, although early last spring I was certain I would do so. However I’m glad really good products in this bucket are available from ECM, Izzo, Lelit and others. I do track such periodically against unforeseen future requirements. This has been fun and informative, thank you.

HarveyMushman

I don’t wanna come across all Home Barista but shall we get this thread back on topic and not argue?

Cuprajake

HarveyMushman there is an ignore button for a reason, theres a few in this thread on mine..means you dont have to read the junk

delta76

HarveyMushman apologies. I’m out

Loonster

As a complete newb to the espresso machine world, the feature set I want to see is “Sleep”. It is not quite off but not fully heated either.

Take the Evo, it has a 15 minute heat up time. The limiting factor is the group head. Where is most of the heat lost on the machine? I don’t know, but based on heater wattage, I assume it’s the boilers. So preheating the group head, while keeping the boilers off, would allow a heat up time to be considerably reduced while not wasting as much electricity as if it was fully on.

Add in schedules and automatic sleep functions, and it would be really convenient feature.

Elcarajillo

Igm45 Is that Titus Corby moonlighting from the Bosch series ?😆

DavecUK

Elcarajillo One of the rare moments I get caught on camera. The other place is Lelits stand.

MediumRoastSteam

chlorox - found this:

giampiero

with a lower budget…

drdre89

@DavecUK you’re famous. You’re in the latest Kyle Rowsell video at 8:43.

DavecUK

drdre89 I try and keep a low profile

delta76

drdre89 not sure how appearing in background of a Kyle Rowsell’s video qualifies “famous”. Especially for someone well known and respected in the industry like Dave. (yes I understand your thought of “hey that’s Dave”, but I would not be excited or proud myself if I appeared in that video)

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