I am sure a lot of us still have doubts about this, but perhaps we don’t ask what ever may be the reason! I am neither scared nor feeling ashamed of asking ! May be, I am the only one. 😂 We openly discuss the fruity, acidity, smooth, bold, rich and sweet, but never bitterness. Here are my understanding of the notes / flavour / taste…..They all sound familiar to us. * Acidity - lemonade, crisp green apple. saliva at the side of the tongue means acidic. It’s a fruity acidity * Sour - tart, lemon, burnt courgette = sour, puckering lips, facial change. Sour tastes bad in back of cheeks * Bitter = paracetamol bitter / medicine. Bitter tastes bad at centre and back of tongue. * Sweet = fruity acidity, aroma, texture, smooth no obvious sweetness (sugar) * Body = mouthfeel, texture, how we feel in the mouth. Feeling thin = weak like tea; thick = rich, chewy, full, richer * Finish - pleasant, nice, bad taste = after taste * Flavour = fresh fruit like apples, pears, peaches, cooked (jammy, baked) and fermented (tropical) = acidity * Medium to high acidity = fresh = berry, grape, apple, plum or peach * Low acidity = example - cooked fruit * Tropical / fermented (strawberries, wild, mangoes, pineapples,…) * Caramelisation = caramel, baked, roasted, biscuit, toffees. * Dislike = woody, rubbery, eggy, mushroom, etc But, I am not sure, I entirely agree with the interpretation of bitterness. **It can be pleasant, help achieve a balance to compliment the complexity and flavours without overwhelming.** When we say, no bitterness, what do we actually mean? Are we indicating it is not medicinal bitter as defined above? Are we assuming bitterness, which IMHO can’t be avoided and is always there, is fine as it long as one can enjoy it or it doesn’t taste bad (after taste)? Of course, it can vary from person to person. Let me know what you guys think? Thx

I believe the bitterness taste in coffee is primarily through the **phenolic compounds,** which I think is also known as **chlorogenic acids —** I have heard they are not actually bitter— in green beans. Robusta tends to have more perceived bitterness than Arabica, IMO. Generic factors and processing methods can also influence the bitterness in beans. The roasting breaks down the chlorogenic acids into lactones (light to medium roasts) and phenylindanes (medium dark to darker roasts) - can I the primary source of bitterness in roasted beans, which we try to avoid ? Finally, the other parameters, which we are all aware of - the grind, the grinder, age of the beans, the brewing method, temperature, over-extraction, and so on. There is an [article](https://www.scielo.br/j/bjpp/a/cbSqnBPFFvhRTvKFm6WNQWC/?lang=en), which I thought of as an interesting read. One observation re-my Jx Pro It’s great and the Evo gets me lovely shots. The question / doubt, which I have is the following : *Is the Evo exposing the limitations of a manual grinder like JX pro?*

> @"LMSC"#p3453 Let me know what you guys think? Thx I think you may be over simplifying things. The sensations we get from taste can't be broken down to just a few descriptors as you did. (e.g. Acidity = lemonade, green apples, fruity acidity). It's probably thousands of components that can produce what we describe as acidity/sweetness/bitterness etc. Then, as you said, there is the balance between sensations. Take the same acidity on it's own and you have one sensation. Mix it with sweet and you have a completely different perception of it. Then there is context: we look for different things in different context (imagine drinking coffee and tasting cheddar cheese…). Bitterness in itself isn't 'bad', just the same as sweetness isn't always 'good'. Some sort of bitterness is probably present in all coffees, and certainly in beer. Without it, it won't taste like beer/coffee. And the same for sweetness: beer and coffee always have some sweetness in them, but too much of it will spoil the balance and won't be enjoyable. And of course, as you correctly said, this will also vary from person to person, and what tastes 'good' for one might taste 'bad' for someone else. We generally tend to think of 'sweet' as good and 'bitterness' as bad, maybe because for 'sweet' we think of the 'good' kind of sweet (the one we enjoy) although there are sweet things we won't enjoy. And for 'bitterness' we think of the bitters we don't like (burnt, paracetamol). However, coffee, beer and Campari are some of the tastiest things in the world (imo) and they all have a distinct fantastic bitterness which makes them what they are.

I guess any of the 5 taste perceptions (bitter, sweet, sour, salty and the new boy on the block umami) add a depth or complexity to what we are tasting. But, any one of them depending on concentration, can also be overpowering and maybe bitter is seen as the least taste friendly, unlike sour which anyone who enjoyed a sherbet dab or sherbet lemon in their youth will attest. For me, if I taste something bitter and it makes me pull a face like a Camel sucking a lemon, then I know it's just a bit too bitter. Unfortunately, my real coffee journey has had more of those moments than I like to recall.

Bitterness , like sourness, is usually associated with extraction problems, rather than being a constituent part of the bean. Take for example, astringency. In tea, that can be linked to black pepper and does form part other makeup, as no matter what you do, you cannot get rid of the taste.......not so sure your thoughts on coffee @"LMSC"#16 are right though

@"Doram"#p3458 Very nicely explained! Thank you. Of course, I have simplified as sense, feeling, taste, perceptions, persona and so on are far too complex and difficult to bucket them in simple terms. But, we get an idea ! [This US institute](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279408/?report=reader) mentions about 35 different proteins in our sensory cells, which can influence our perception of taste.

@"Pompeyexile"#p3459 > @"Pompeyexile"#p3459 Unfortunately, my real coffee journey has had more of those moments than I like to recall. I really doubt we can really achieve perfection. It’s a continuous learning process.

@"dfk41"#p3460 Thanks mate. I am more of a pour over (immersion Indian brew) for a long time. I don’t even remember the beans we used - perhaps Plantation A and Peaberrry. You guys are obviously experienced in these stuffs. Please advise what’s not correct in my thoughts. Always, happy to be stand corrected! Agree, bitterness (based on how we define it) is an extraction issue. But, that is, IMO, is only the final parameter in this complex jigsaw puzzle. Roasting profile is another. But, there has got to be an underlying natural quality, where besides all the excellent notes and taste, bitterness of some form is embedded. 😊

> @"LMSC"#p3461 [This US institute](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279408/?report=reader) mentions about 35 different proteins in our sensory cells, which can influence our perception of taste. The article states that "Bitter taste is brought about by many fundamentally different substances. In total there are about 35 different proteins in the sensory cells that respond to bitter substances." Let's assume the above is accurate. Combine this with different amounts of these substances. Then combine them with the substances that have a sensory response as sweet/sour/salty in different amounts, and you will immediately see that the number of combinations is infinite. We don't have enough words. We know that there are many shades of what we call 'white' (and some people can distinguish many more than others), but in many languages these are all put into one basket and named 'white'. Same with 'bitter' - one word describes an endless number of sensory sensations and reactions. The question might therefore be: why does the word 'bitter' trigger the negative association of all the sensations this word is used for rather than the positive ones (if this is what it does for you)? (and the opposite for the word 'sweet'). If you think of 'bitter' as 'bad', I think you are simply reducing the use of the word to the sensory responses you don't like. :) 🤮

Why bitterness in coffee is not looked upon favourably?

-Mac

I’d say bitterness is good if it’s balanced and is no more than you get in a dark chocolate, but individual tastes vary. Some people are weird and really enjoy bitterness for its own sake.

LMSC

-Mac Dark Chocolate bitterness - that’s a nice description. Like Cocoa!

-Mac enjoy bitterness

Like Marmite ?

LMSC

Doram number of combinations is infinite.

Exactly! I was thinking the same. The human body and all the good and bad associated with it are a mind boggling beautiful complex machine. I doubt if our dear God will be able to define.

Doram The question might therefore be why does the word ‘bitter’ triggers the negative sensations that are associated with the word more than the positive ones that are also described by it

That’s the basic question, which triggered my post. Why should it be bad? .Why no body talks about this? The moment we say it is a tad bitter, we get an ouch / medicinal bitter reaction! 😊Something, somewhere and some personas changed the perception about this bitterness.

Doram

LMSC That’s the basic question, which triggered my post. Why should it be bad? .Why no body talks about this? The moment we say it is a tad bitter, we get an ouch / medicinal bitter reaction! 😊Something, somewhere and some personas changed the perception about this bitterness.

If it was possible to remove all the compounds that are described as ‘bitter’ from coffee, I think it would probably not taste like coffee and we would complain that it has gone.

DavecUK

LMSC Is the Evo exposing the limitations of a manual grinder like JX pro?

Yes, I would think it is.

LMSC

DavecUK I was scared you will say this! I am going to be thrashed by two beautiful women, whom I love them to bits.

Upgradeitis 🙄😅

Beverast

In my opinion “bitterness” is a very broad subject and really subjective. I find bitterness in whisky a lot of the time can be associated with youthfulness - sometimes very unpleasant, however sometimes the bitterness can be cut by adding sherry casks into the mix, which can “mask” some of that youthfulness, resulting in an interesting, complex dram. I like a little bit of bitterness in whisky, but the balance needs to be right - returning sweetness, so you get that mix of bitter/sweet.

Similarly, I used to drink a lot of puerh tea daily - my favourite puerhs were always those that had some bitterness in the background, however again like whisky, balanced with some returning sweetness.

Today I have had x2 shots of espresso - both had some bitterness, however I would liken it to 90% dark chocolate rather than just being “bitter”. There were other flavours which did help to balance it all out. So, basically I really don’t mind some bitterness in my espresso, as long as it is balanced out by all the other flavours.

DavecUK

For me, the major concern is that it tastes like coffee. 😉

LMSC

Doram It’s our thinking / perception of bitterness, which needs to change, is it not ?

Elcarajillo perception

Yeah…It’s a sliding scale.

Elcarajillo

Last night I watched a program on sugar and the effects it has when consumed to excess= diabetes and associated problems. This was done by a doctor in association with other specialists.

One experiment they did in a food laboratory was to make coke (the drink) with the modern ingredients and tasting it as they added the various ingredients.

Initially all the sugar (10 tsp’s ?) = tasted B/ awful. Added various other components = still tasted awful. =still sickly sweet. To cut the sugar taste they added caffeine, this improved it no end. Final ingredient pressurized air carbonated drink. This was pretty close to their previous experience of drinking coke.

All the unpleasant tastes were still in the drink but masked covered /improved by the addition of caffeine and the pressurized air.

perception Just shows how complicated the sense of taste from various ingredients can change taste

DavecUK

LMSC I was scared you will say this! I am going to be thrashed by two beautiful women, whom I love them to bits.

Upgradeitis 🙄😅

Yes, but I would hang on a bit….unless you feel you have to upgrade now.

John_Yossarian

LMSC I think you must have subconsciously known that this was coming 🙂.

You cannot have the Ferrari of the coffee gear and be shy for quality tyres (I know tyres to the car are not what grinder to coffee machine is, but you get my gist). My wife, when she sees that I want to buy something badly has always been very supportive and that made me re-think my purchases. In the end I more often buy the thing but she makes me think by being supportive. Go figure. :)
It doesn’t have to be an arm and a leg type of purchase though.

On the taste thread: I have been enjoying the Clumsy Goat Peruvian a lot. In fact the sweetness that was mentioned on a few occasions comes through very strongly with these beans. I am amazed how sweet a shot can be (and before you ask, no, I do not add sugar 😄). I then sense a slightly salty taste, which is a strange combination. The texture is also very important. I like when the coffee shot is thick and the viscosity helps appreciate the espresso when in your mouth.

Last but not least, Happy New Year!

Doram

LMSC Doram It’s our thinking / perception of bitterness, which needs to change, is it not ?

I don’t feel the need to change anything. I can taste what I like and what I don’t like, and I am aware of the limitations I have describing it using language. Personally I think I would use more words, and maybe more ‘negative’ words to describe ‘bitter’ that I don’t like. For example, I would say the coffee taste like ‘burnt rubber’ or ‘ashtray’ or ‘harsh’ rather than say it’s ‘bitter’. And if I wanted to say it’s bitter, I would use more words to make it negative (e.g. super-bitter, overpouring bitter, charcoal bitter, unpleasantly bitter etc.).

LMSC

Doram I didn’t mean you or any one in particular!

When I say, change in perception or thinking, one is to not to take bitterness as negative and two, aim to define it better as you had elucidated.

I always try to clarify if it is medicinal bitter or otherwise.

Doram

LMSC Doram I didn’t mean you or any one in particular!

Neither did I. :)

What I meant is that I don’t feel a need to change the perception, just to try and convey the ‘negative’ attributes with ‘negative’ terms (and maybe with a bit more words), to help others understand what we mean. ‘bitter’ on it’s own is more ambivalent in my opinion compared to ‘burnt’ or ‘harsh unpleasant bitterness’.

For me, the word ‘bitter’ when used on it’s own isn’t necessarily negative.

LMSC

DavecUK Nah. I can wait. Let’s see where does this wait is going to take me!

LMSC

Doram For me, the word ‘bitter’ when used on it’s own isn’t necessarily negative.

Pleased to hear. I agree with you.

MWJB

I think that there is an inherant expectation of bitterness in coffee, it’s nearly always there in some degree. It’s only a problem if it dominates…as is acidity. Rare that sweetness will dominate, but it can.

"Acidity - lemonade, crisp green apple. saliva at the side of the tongue means acidic. It’s a fruity acidity

Sour - tart, lemon, burnt courgette = sour, puckering lips, facial change. Sour tastes bad in back of cheeks
Bitter = paracetamol bitter / medicine. Bitter tastes bad at centre and back of tongue.
Sweet = fruity acidity, aroma, texture, smooth no obvious sweetness (sugar)"

Here, you seem to have bitterness, only with a negative connotation, then 3 different perceptions of acidity? “Sour” & “Bitter” by your descriptions here don’t sound like intended notes, or noted in a representative brew, they sound like thy are caused by a malfunction.

Coffee is predominantly acids, some are acidic, others are bitter & not always perceived as “acidity”. With overriding bitterness being associated with over-extraction/brew malfunction, it can be difficult to see it as a positive (but again, I think we selectively ignore a normal degree of bitterness that say a child, or non coffee drinker would find it difficult to look past). I remember when a couple of roasters were trying to celebrate bitter hop notes in coffee, you’d spend a pretty penny on it, then think, “I could have over-extracted some everyday beans & got this!”.

LMSC

MWJB inherant expectation of bitterness in coffee

Thanks mate! It’s good to hear your views. As we were discussing this morning, I had thought bitterness, unfortunately, has always been associated negatively and hence frowned upon. It doesn’t have to be. Certainly, we don’t want a negative bitterness as an after-taste.

Acidity, Sour, Bitter and Sweet descriptions are how I have learnt — albeit with my limited knowledge — to identify them so that I can selectively try avoiding the “negativeness” (sour and bitter) in coffee, be it a brew and an espresso. If I can address these two “malfunction” as you had correctly noted, it will be easier, at least for me, to correlates the cup with anticipated notes from the bag!

While I primarily restricts my daily brew to Clever with occasional Aeropress or an Indian filter, I seldom see the need to adjust my grind size barring smaller adjustments.

My Evo always produces very good shots, although it does exposes the limitations of a manual grinders like the JX Pro; this is more so if I were to end up with a bag, which I don’t like or can’t figure out / get the notes written on the bag or end up getting odd bags with only the best before date! The shot can then go all over the place irrespective of the grind size, the dosage or the ratio. Then, one starts wondering is it the beans, limitations of a grinder, and so on. 😊

LMSC

John_Yossarian I am not surprised at all! Will get there on the electrical grinder department eventually.

Pleased you are enjoying the Peru! I liked the Ethiopian. The beehive never went away on both Peru and Ethiopian. No other beans from other roasters had this problem. Bizzare! I won’t buy from them for reasons cited elsewhere. It’s all part of learning experience. So, no disappointments or regrets really. 😊

BTW, am waiting for the delivery of 3 bags from Casuals. They said they roasted the beans yesterday and is in the post already.

Happy New Year to you and family! Be safe!

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