Are there any machines apart from the Minima that have a solenoid switch and have/can have a flow paddle fitted?

> @"-Mac"#p4431 Are there any machines apart from the Minima that have a solenoid switch and have/can have a flow paddle fitted? Currently the Minima is the only machine I know of using a solenoid controlled E61..Which in my opinion is a real shame as the Solenoid group is a far, far better choice for profiling machines. Suites vibration pump machines very well as they don't need the preinfusion chamber. * Virtually maintenance free compared to an E61 * No preinfusion chamber to disable for pressure/flow profiling machines * Can be programmed to auto stop (no danger of leaving a lever up) * Solenoid lasts much longer than standard lever E61 internal parts. * Just the nucleus of the solenoid can be replaced, no need to replace the entire solenoid I have been recommending the Vesuvius move to a solenoid operated group for many years now…but manufacturers are frightened, purely for marketing reasons…they think consumers want the lever operated E61, so there is a need to inform customers of the solenoid E61 benefits.

> @"DavecUK"#p4433 Currently the Minima is the only machine I know of using a solenoid controlled E61. Maybe the only dual boiler… But ECM makes an HX, @"-Mac"#p4431: ECM Profi: https://www.ecm.de/en/products/details/product/Product/Details/elektronika-ii-prof

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p4435 Link doesn't work. Interesting though because I did speak with Michael about the possibility of using a solenoid group on Puristka….I didn't think they used Solenoid E61s Ah found it at this link. https://www.ecm.de/en/products/details/product/Product/Details/elektronika-ii-profi

A Vesuvius with solenoid operated E61 group would be excellent. If they have not bought into the idea by now (hopefully the Minima success might convince them) I am afraid it is not happening.

From a user's perspective, I'd much rather a switch than a lever and this is one of the main reasons I want a Minima - I like the E61 group, and having no lever and greasing faff to worry about is a massive win for that machine for me. I get the romantic notion behind why some would prefer a lever, but being relatively new to all of this, I'm more for convenience and ease (and particularly less things to go wrong)

> @"DavecUK"#p4445 Link doesn’t work Ooops. Looks like I missed the “i” from “profi” at the end. Damn you copy/paste! 😂😉

@"dutchy101"#p4512 Exaclty my thinking! When are you getting your Minima?

Solenoid switch

-Mac

DavecUK No preinfusion chamber to disable for pressure/flow profiling machines

Thanks Dave :)

For Mr Thicky here, can you explain this, please?

DavecUK

In a pressure profiling machine during a slow ramp up of pressure..the prinfusion chamber will open and fill at 4 bar. This disrupts the profile, probably more so on a paddle machine controlling flow, than a machine controlling pressure.

-Mac

DavecUK

Thanks Dave 🙂

So…

Does the 4 bar thing happen on the Bianca?
Should I get the Bianca or the Minima? I’m not bothered about looks or pump noise/type, only ever function (and I’m using an Osmio for water).
Is there anything the Bianca can do that the Minima can’t/couldn’t?

I don’t mind spending the extra on the Bianca but I’d like to know that it’s more than about style if I do.

I seem to be being drawn to the solenoid group (I’m lazy) of the Minima but if there’s a good reason to go for the Bianca…

DavecUK

-Mac

Does the 4 bar thing happen on the Bianca?

Should I get the Bianca or the Minima? I’m not bothered about looks or pump noise/type, only ever function (and I’m using an Osmio for water).

Is there anything the Bianca can do that the Minima can’t/couldn’t?

No, because lelit put a much stronger spring in the preinfusion chamber and use that spring/area as the group vent when the lever is lowered.
That’s going to be a personal choice
For a Minima with flow paddle, vs the new Bianca yes, a few LCC functions, are not replicated. Bloom phase, where the pump can pause, also high and low flow preinfusion phases, which are new functions. e.g. you could do a low flow shot if you wanted to and replicate the gradual ramp of the Minima vibe pump. Plus you have the water tank options, none left, right or back. Also an experimental, I think it’s in the production machine, where you can have the heaters switch off during the shot and have a slightly declining shot temperature…but the difference would be very small.

If the question is about the espresso produced…there may be some on some/all coffees with the high, low flow options and bloom phase. The Minima could be made to do a bloom phase, if ACS reprogrammed the Gicar box…something I recommended they look to do, but there is a high cost to them.

In my opinion, steaming is better on the minima…but it’s not problematic on the Bianca.

I think it purely has to be a personal choice of what you like the look of….the Bianca is a very “polished” package…but you pay a little more for that.

-Mac

Great! Thanks Dave. I think I’ll go with the Bianca and have to have a word with myself about maintenance.

dutchy101

PortafilterProcrastinator

I’ve just ordered it from Black Cat so over the next week or so. Can’t wait to see it in the flesh.

-Mac

OK, my retirement pension scheme has just told me there is some unexpected extra money coming my way :)

So, Dave, Bianca or Evo Leva?

DavecUK

-Mac So, Dave, Bianca or Evo Leva?

You will love both…..only you can decide this one…Bianca owners will say Bianca, Leva owners will say Leva….sorry, can’t help you here.

LMSC

-Mac We know both are different worlds. We can’t compare to choose one over the other.

Both are outstanding machines and you will be happy with either of them. Bianca will require you to carry out a little more maintenance than the Evo. The Evo pump is relatively noisier than Bianca. The Bianca maintenance and the Evo pump noise are no issues IMO

The Evo provides you plenty of choices to play with - examples : pressure profiling, temperature profiling, …

If you have always wanted a lever, this the best you can get. It costs at least £650 more than Bianca!

What do you prefer? Where does your heart lie? It’s a personal choice.

-Mac

Thanks, LMSC.

I’ve wanted an Evo Leva ever since I saw Dave’s videos. Price has been an issue up until very recently - I retired from work and got some unexpected extra money. I had ‘settled’ for an Elizabeth, then thought I’d push for a Bianca as my ‘end game’, but now the extra money would allow me to go for the Leva after all. I just want to make sure that there’s no functionality I’d miss if I got either the Leva or Bianca that I don’t currently realise the other has. I realise that they’re very, very different machines.

First world problems 😉

Jcheney

I am resurrecting this thread because I was so surprised to realise that there was an E61 variant with a solenoid instead of a lever, way back when this was first posted. I am adding one more to our list

The VBM Super Electronic

It’s a dual boiler with some form of flow profiling.

I think that brings our list up to:

1) ACS Minima (2B Vib pump)
2) ECM elektronika (HX Rotary)
3) VBM Domobar Super Electronic (2B Rotary)

May this continue to expand…

Anyone know much about the VBM line? I never hear much about them. They are quite compact, and do some form of “pressure profiling”.

DavecUK

Jcheney Anyone know much about the VBM line? I never hear much about them. They are quite compact, and do some form of “pressure profiling”.

I have their top pressure profiling model in my Kitchen…personally they get a C, need to do better.

Jcheney

There are two more from QuickMill (strangely I can’t find the models on their website), which feature electronic dosing and solenoid-controlled E61 groups.

QuickMill Vetrano 2B DE (2B Rotary)

QuickMill Andreja DE (HX Vib pump)

Both link to Caffe Italia [coffeeitalia.co.uk]. They are also listed as “in stock”, suggesting the info is not totally out of date)…

So there’s an HX Vib, HX Rotary, 2B Vib, and a couple of options for 2B Rotary.

So reflecting on Mac’s original question, I bet almost all of these options could be fitted with a flow-control device, since ECM and QuickMill make them, and ACS is compatible with Lelit’s. Certainly, the manufacturers could be expected to answer questions of compatibility of their own parts.

Jcheney

DavecUK Would you expand on that? Is that so-so rating based on it’s pressure profiling, or it’s espresso making capability?

DavecUK

Jcheney Theres a few things they need to get to grips with….talking to someone who understands the needs of prosumers would have been a great start. Just a few things I found.

They feel you don’t really need to see the actual temperature just the setpoint
They don’t think you need to see or would want to change the PID parameters, apart from the temperature
They believe instant step changes in pressure, done as fast as possible, are a good thing when profiling???
When you turn the service boiler on for steaming, they think you don’t want to see the temperature rising to the set point, so you know when it’s ready!
They believe the float switch to tell you when the tray is full should be where you put your cup, and would want to place your anti-scratch mat, instead of under the lever where you would never put anything
They think last shot protection is unnecessary, and you enjoy having your espresso shot stop mid-pour

Theres a fair bit of of other stuff as well…but it’s the little things that enhance the user experience, so much so that I didn’t bother opening it up yet to look inside and see what’s lurking….It’s a real shame because it could be a really nice little machine and does make a decent shot….all for the sake of a little software enhancement.

They are owned by a corporate and after the battle with Crem, I cannot face another battle with Vibiemme. The larger the company, the less inclined they are to listen and the harder it is to get them to change anything.

Jcheney

Thanks Dave. Your experience is so valuable

DavecUK

Jcheney Great to see, we need more machines like this and less maintenance

Cuprajake

@DavecUK whats the low flow high flow thing on the bianca?

DavecUK

Cuprajake It’s a software/hardware change on their latest machines. It changes the flow rate, before the water goes to the group. This in turn affects the ramp rate and way the flow control works. e.g. in one example you can have it open more, but with a low flow rate and then let the high flow rate ramp it without moving the paddle.

Cuprajake

Sounds good, is that something that can be flashed? Or is that for the 23 machine

DavecUK

Cuprajake Sounds good, is that something that can be flashed? Or is that for the 23 machine

This is all on the version of Bianca released in Nov21 I think, I have been using it about a year before its release. Because it uses additional wiring and components, you can’t buy a new LCC….There are other changes to software as well, but it all comes together in a single release.

P.S No retailers can reflash a Biancas LCC…