https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpoJ-6x7fFQ

I’ve just watched it and was completely distracted by the view counter increasing by the hundred’s every few minutes. Incredible that he carries this much “clout” and I imagine the responsibility must be both a blessing and a curse at times, after all one man’s meat can be another man’s poison. Generally a thorough review but never having owned a duo I wouldn’t like to comment on his findings .

Always enjoy watching his videos. A few observations below would be appropriate. - I haven’t seen the need to RDT since day 1. Some medium dark and dark coffee do create traces of static. The filter burrs spray the chaffs as static most of the time. It’s a good riddance in filter as I don’t like them at all. 😁 IMO, we don’t need to RDT. - I do not have a zero to compare the espresso. It’s a huge step up from JX Pro. However, compared to the clarity, and flavour on filter, I have to say these two are less pronounced as the espresso gives a balanced cup. I do agree that it’s not convenient, at least for me, to swap the burrs 2-3 times a day to switch between filter and espresso. It is very easy and takes less than a minute to swap, but I am lazy and can’t be asked! 😊 Good to hear he liked the solid build guilty, work flow, motor, no RPM and the price point. It is, however, unfair comparing a very expensive grinder with the Duo. I wish he had said it is a very good value as a combo. I still think it is - espresso or both. 😊 It is great he did not say one will have to zero for filter every time you swap. 😁

It must just be me that regularly changes the burrs, I have a filter first thing and then swap out for espresso the rest of the day.

The stock burrs are traditional, everyone knows that, that's why most manufacturers supply SSP.

Another thing is - espresso burrs set isn’t meant for filter as a daily driver. It is plain and simple.

I think he had some valid complaints-- namely that in today's market with what has come out since the zero, and presumably what the duo will have to compete against over the next few years, is that they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option.

Hoffman on the Duo

dfk41

washed they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option.

Would you like to name such a beast that also keeps to the same price point and is readily available in large numbers please

washed

dfk41 The company behind the DF grinders offer their own DLC-coated burrs now to replace the often-meh’d italmills. For example.

chlorox

dfk41
They could have instead chosen the ssp burrs as the espresso burr choice and that would have immediately distinguished it completely from the zero. Or better yet what I suggested above - providing different burr choices other than the mazzer burrs.

Dusk

I don’t think he is destroying a product with his review, he’s just saying it’s not the game changer that the Zero was. Yes there’s a lot more competition in the market these days but choice isn’t a bad thing and will drive manufacturers to improve their products.

I also like the honesty that he couldn’t taste the difference between the Zero and Duo, a lot of influencers give the impression that they’re super tasters but I’m not always convinced that their palate would stand up to some proper blind tasting.

MediumRoastSteam

Dusk I also like the honesty that he couldn’t taste the difference between the Zero and Duo

But when I said that ages ago… no one believed me! It has a very minor and subtle difference. If you don’t have it then side by side and focus hard, you can’t tell the difference, in my opinion. The exception was one bean I had which was ok on the zero and horrible on the duo. I attributed that to the coffee being not well roasted.

dfk41

washed Chinese burrs……oh please!

Cuprajake

Which worries me, because I can taste it lol and I’m far from running my own roastary 😂😂

HarveyMushman

Controversial point but his coverage of the Zero was pretty instrumental in getting Niche (and arguably single dosing) to where it is today.

I don’t think he owes them anything but I also don’t think this take on the Duo will affect sales too much.

He’s watched and loved mainly by the kind of audience who buy the Zero - people getting into espresso and buying their first or second ‘proper’ grinder.

Merits or otherwise, the Duo has always been a harder sell due to market position and I doubt this video will make a huge difference either way.

Edit: Just so there’s no doubt I’m not saying the Zero/Duo aren’t deserving of the praise, they’re clearly great grinders I just don’t think his negative comments about the Duo will have the same level of impact as his positive comments on the Zero.

dfk41

Is the colour of the blue burr carrier, or the size of the catch cup (I agree that for filter it should be bigger) and the occasional pop corning really (I know he called it nit picking) a bad deal? I reckon there are plenty of grinders out there who upon review would settle for that criticism! Interesting to hear thoughts from members who have experience of both, or have a Duo which has replaced another grinder.

Cuprajake

I’ve got both and anyone local is more than welcome to come taste the difference 😀

dfk41

Cuprajake I have had both and believe you me……even with famous kipper influenced taste buds, I could tell the difference in th flavours they produced!

delta76

I don’t think he destroyed the Duo. He stated clearly what he likes about it and what he wanted more, and he did not even name a grinder that is clearly better than Duo (he made it clear that EG1 is extremely expensive, and people who can and want to buy an EG1 are very unlikely to buy a Duo). If that was to kill Duo then DF64 would be long dead, as his opinions on the DF64 were significantly less favourable.

As usual I like his calm, on point and balanced opinions. Enjoyed it, and happy to see I am not missing much with my Zero. Wish he does more grinder reviews, like DF83v2 and DF83v

tompoland

I broadly agree with his opinion about the stock Duo 151B Mazzer burrs versus the Konys in the Zero although I do think the latter offer more body. Taste wise, I don’t experience much of a difference, if any.

For me, the Duo stock espresso burrs offer a mainstream, traditional, smooth, inoffensive espresso that fails to excite. Again, just me, but there are much more intersting espresso burrs out there.

Other more interesting options for me, including the humble and inexpensive Varia Hypernova series (three of them), the DF 83mm flat and more.

The Duo’s appeal is restricted by Niche’s decision not to condone the use of different burrs sets. Even using the sublime Mazzer k151H espresso burrs will void your warranty. In the 83mm flat range, the DF Espresso, Gorilla Gear, SSP Espresso (HU) are all burrs I’d have over the stock Duo espresso burrs.

And by opting for those burrs (151B) and not embacing burr swapping like so many other companies (Timemore, DF, Gevi, Zerno and so many more) and insisting that only the stock burrs are used for espresso, Niche have limited their market appeal. (DF must think that Niche’s inflexibility is a dream come true.)

FWIW, for me the Duo is a completely superb grinder. But Niche’s refusal to allow burr swapping, makes it like a Formula One car that has a controller limiting the speed to 100kph. All the other cars/grinders can perform at a higher level, not because they are better grinders, but because they allow for better (in my opion) burrs.

If Niche would only permit burr swapping, then for espresso it would produce world equalling performance in the cup and it would likely outperform everything else in the same budget bracket for retention, durability (not tested but likely), workflow, ease of deep cleaning and overall value for money. I’ve tried twice to convince Niche to change their policy but unfortunately to no avail. Crossing fingers that they will relent eventually.

God forbid, but if I had to have only one espresso grinder on my bench, it would be the Duo. But not with the stock burrs.

BrendaninBrooklyn

tompoland We await the Burrathon with enthusiasm. And who knows, perhaps Niche will begin offering other Mazzer burrs as options. This would be sensible, profitable, and unlikely to increase support costs.

chlorox

tompoland
Just like with their original strategy with forcing buyers to buy both stock burrs if they want the grinder - which they were forced to retract once they realised the market didn’t agree with them and was not buying the duo in sufficient quantities - niche is really missing the thrust of the market again by continuing with their decision to reject burr swapping and choosing the wrong set of burrs as their espresso burrs.

The way i see it - the entire move to flat burrs was driven by the desire to experience more individual flavour separation which then drove the innovation towards lighter roasts and in making more and more unimodal type burrs. Which also drove the impetus to allow for the ability to replace burrs without affecting alignment etc.

The truly peculiar thing about niche’s inflexibility is how counterproductive and unnecessary it is. Instead of AGAIN trying to force the market to do what they want, they should realise that the stock espresso burrs they chose is just not the type of burrs that are optimal for light roasts, and allow burr swapping. Those mazzer burrs completely frustrate their aim to capitalise on the massive flat burr market and hold them back and instead cannibalise the market for the zero because it is too similar in taste profile - as Hoffman has highlighted!

It is particularly bewildering and unnecessary because the way they have designed the Duo ans creating burr carriers, it is already optimised for easy burr swapping. Instead of being a bad thing they try to discourage by warning of the warranty being voided, it is a massive business opportunity that niche is completely missing the plot on.

What they should have done from the start is to sell as different models of the Duo 1) with the mazzer espresso burrs for those who want the traditional Italian espresso they enjoyed with the zero but with flat burrs 2) with ssp 83mm lab sweet cast steel burrs and 3) with ssp MP burrs at the very least. 2) and 3) would greatly increase the duo’s attractiveness as a product and earn more profits for them and niche is already set up for it with the modularity of their burr carrier design! They literally have to do nothing except order ssp burrs and change their website to make this happen and yet they haven’t done it thus holding back their product.

My suspicion is that in a few months niche will come around and finally do this because hoffman has done them a favour by increasing the pressure on them to do this and it just makes sense and doesn’t even need any structural change to their product.

MWJB

Cuprajake Those plots from Socratic can’t be compared to any other plots (like LPA plots), if you did compare to LPA plots any espresso grinds from a burr grinder would be bi-modal.

With sifting (what Socratic used) you can make modes appear & disappear by sieve intervals, they’re an artefact of the analysis & presentation, not to be taken literally.

The only thing you can determine with any certainty on the “test burrs” vs “mazzer standard burrs” plot is that the Mazzer standard burrs are a coarser setting.

Socratic’s sifting plots are non-cumulative and also weighted via method they haven’t fully explained. We have talked at length in the past on this subject.

I wouldn’t have any faith in anyone presenting this as proof of/against anything regarding grind ‘quality’.

The espresso fines peak is around 40um in all LPA plots, sifting essentially stops working around 125-177um.

Cuprajake

MWJB I removed the post last night,

As I realised it wasn’t correct

Just annoying as that data isn’t explained to the masses.

MWJB

washed Was skeptical of him saying they tasted the same until he backed it up with the particle test results.

Guess those mazzer flats are holding it back.

It’s not made clear whether there was room to grind finer with the Duo, both the Duo & Zero had less fines in the absolute sense (but a larger average size - but we typically dial in biased towards the smaller particles rather than the average). The EG-1 had the smaller average size, whether it makes more/less fines than the Duo at that grind size isn’t clear/shown, it may well be that it’s not possible to set the Duo that fine for the same brew ratio (forgetting time) & get good results, but that is not clear yet.

However, most grinders make an average/typical grind distribution, as Hoffmann alludes to - some flats do something weird, some conicals do something weird, the small proportion of weird grinders can’t set the norm.

I have no stake in the game, but I’ve looked at lots of grind distributions, from varying methods and gear and every time someone presents a new method/bit of gear, you start from scratch (in terms of any comparison) again.

I don’t know why more people don’t present cumulative curves as they’re easier to compare and many analysers have the capability to do exactly that.

JonWoo187

chlorox Why should they follow what so many other wannabe companies are offering? The flat burr grinder market is getting to be a boring joke to be honest.

LMSC

@DavecUK can confirm. I think the existing burrs carrier is optimised for Mazzer 151B and we can’t swap the burrs as easily as we would like to. I also believe SSP HU will fit the existing carrier.

IMO, offering different burrs choices for espresso likely require respective unique carrier designs, optimising tight tolerance and perhaps tweak the design a little for each of them. This doesn’t end here. The motor may need to be customised or optimised further for each choices.

I don’t think there is an efficient one-size fits all solutions here, knowing Niche doesn’t do a sub-optimal job.

However, there is a gap in the market in this price bracket. I do think Niche may want to look at the possibility of mounting different burrs choices at sales, and after-sales. Sure, it will cost more.

Irrespective of what people think, offering dual burrs is innovative and is still a great idea. We are just lazy that most of us can’t be bothered to use it and we don’t appreciate it enough.

chlorox

LMSC

If so, then niche should have embarked from the start on a different burr that has a substantially different taste profile from the zero and then designed its burr carrier to that burr…this was clearly a bad decision to use those mazzer burrs from the start and theres no getting around that mistake on niche’s part which has resulted in an essentially superfluous and duplicative grinder for espresso vs the zero.

Anyway would the gears and motors really need to be tweaked to accommodate ssp burrs for instance given how the gears and motors can do a optimal job with even the duo’s filter burrs that would offer a more different profile from the espresso burrs than the ssp burrs would. Furthermore if even the df64 direct gearless motor can handle ssp burrs, surely the famed high torque that the niche gear system generates should easily handle the ssp burrs?

On the strategy to sell the duo with both burrs, it is a nifty idea but it was also a solution to a need that most peoppe did not have and that - as u mentioned - most people are too lazy to do. Which makes it a bad decision business wise even if it is a nifty engineering idea…

I know people here like niche grinders but niche is their own worst enemy where it comes to the duo and their strategy for it - which is unfortunate given how promising their burr carrier idea is.

Dusk

I would assume that Niche would need to rigourously test any additional burrs prior to offering them. If they have a more aggressive cut then they might put more strain on the motor or the zero point might change. When you offer a warranty then you need to be sure that your product is up to scratch. They don’t strike me as a company who rush a product to market so maybe they will offer additional burrs in future, but perhaps not until they’ve had time to thoroughly test them.