https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpoJ-6x7fFQ

I’ve just watched it and was completely distracted by the view counter increasing by the hundred’s every few minutes. Incredible that he carries this much “clout” and I imagine the responsibility must be both a blessing and a curse at times, after all one man’s meat can be another man’s poison. Generally a thorough review but never having owned a duo I wouldn’t like to comment on his findings .

Was skeptical of him saying they tasted the same until he backed it up with the particle test results. Guess those mazzer flats are holding it back.

Always enjoy watching his videos. A few observations below would be appropriate. - I haven’t seen the need to RDT since day 1. Some medium dark and dark coffee do create traces of static. The filter burrs spray the chaffs as static most of the time. It’s a good riddance in filter as I don’t like them at all. 😁 IMO, we don’t need to RDT. - I do not have a zero to compare the espresso. It’s a huge step up from JX Pro. However, compared to the clarity, and flavour on filter, I have to say these two are less pronounced as the espresso gives a balanced cup. I do agree that it’s not convenient, at least for me, to swap the burrs 2-3 times a day to switch between filter and espresso. It is very easy and takes less than a minute to swap, but I am lazy and can’t be asked! 😊 Good to hear he liked the solid build guilty, work flow, motor, no RPM and the price point. It is, however, unfair comparing a very expensive grinder with the Duo. I wish he had said it is a very good value as a combo. I still think it is - espresso or both. 😊 It is great he did not say one will have to zero for filter every time you swap. 😁

It must just be me that regularly changes the burrs, I have a filter first thing and then swap out for espresso the rest of the day.

The stock burrs are traditional, everyone knows that, that's why most manufacturers supply SSP.

Another thing is - espresso burrs set isn’t meant for filter as a daily driver. It is plain and simple.

I think he had some valid complaints-- namely that in today's market with what has come out since the zero, and presumably what the duo will have to compete against over the next few years, is that they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option.

> @"washed"#p62457 they could have paired it with a more competitive single burr option. Would you like to name such a beast that also keeps to the same price point and is readily available in large numbers please

I don't think he is destroying a product with his review, he's just saying it's not the game changer that the Zero was. Yes there's a lot more competition in the market these days but choice isn't a bad thing and will drive manufacturers to improve their products. I also like the honesty that he couldn't taste the difference between the Zero and Duo, a lot of influencers give the impression that they're super tasters but I'm not always convinced that their palate would stand up to some proper blind tasting.

@"dfk41"#p62458 The company behind the DF grinders offer their own DLC-coated burrs now to replace the often-meh'd italmills. For example.

Hoffman on the Duo

chlorox

BrendaninBrooklyn
Of course when I was talking about the mazzer espresso burrs I was talking about the particular set that niche chose as the stock espresso burrs for the duo. Certainly if another different set of mazzer burrs will yield less fines and a more unimodal distribution like the ssp burrs, then by all means why not choose that set instead of a set that basically doesn’t do anything substantially different from the zero’s conical burrs or provide a choice of both the traditoonal espresso burrs and a more contemporary tasting one…

MWJB

chlorox Certainly if another different set of mazzer burrs will yield less fines and a more unimodal distribution like the ssp burrs,

Hoffmann’s analysis shows the Duo espresso burrs producing the least fines, modality isn’t clear (because it’s not the right convention to show it). Do you have any LPA plots of the Duo/Mazzer espresso burrs and the unimodal SSP burrs you mention, dialled in?

chlorox

MWJB
If u r trying to show off your knowledge of particle distribution charts and analysis in comparison to mine, then I can spare u the effort because I am not technically knowledgeable of what an LPA is. What am I trying to do however in these discussions is to reason as a layman based on what info is being shared on a good will basis

What is the point of such a comparison beteeen the particle distribution of ssp burrs vs the duo? Are you suggesting that the ssp burrs would produce a distribution identical with the zero as the duo was shown to have?

Hoffman compared the plots of the eg1 against the zero and the duo. What is the relevance of there being fewer fines ?
I thought that the point he was making was that the distribution of the eg1 core burrs was very different from the duo and the zero which by contrast were almost identical to each other. He was suggesting that this close similarity provided objective basis to his subjective finding that the coffees made from grinds produced by the duo and the zero tasted indistinguishably from each other, as opposed to the taste of coffee made from the eg-1. Do you agree with that conclusion?

FadedFrontiers

MWJB Hoffmann’s analysis shows the Duo espresso burrs producing the least fines, modality isn’t clear (because it’s not the right convention to show it). Do you have any LPA plots of the Duo/Mazzer espresso burrs and the unimodal SSP burrs you mention, dialled in?

Do you have any LPA plots to disprove his findings?

Lack of available data doesn’t change the underlying fact there are other 83mms that would have a more significant difference in taste from the Zero - like with the filter burrs. Or do you actually think they taste similar?

MWJB

chlorox I’m not trying to show off anything. Hoffmann’s plots were presented to the layman (such as me) indeed they show a similar overall coarseness for the two Niche grinders and a finer grind for the EG-1. What interests me is, what in these plots is indicating the shift towards better clarity? Also, is there scope for setting the grinders more similarly (I don’t know)?

I do not know what the SSP burrs will show as it’s not been shared. SSP offer a range of burrs, with some geometries/designs that have already been in use for a decade or more…seems odd that the grinders with these designs aren’t/weren’t mentioned as often in the past.

These plots and information are only useful if we can use it. Why suggest something (a burr, or incidence of fines - which you did) as an alternative if you are unsure of its properties, or the result?

LPA - laser particle analysis. This is the convention by which bimodal espresso grinds can be viewed (not what Hoffmann uses). Layman talk about uniformity and modality, though it’s not clear to me what they’re talking about, all burr grinders make a bimodal espresso grind & most make a uni-modal, coarse grind for filter.

Adrianmsmith

FadedFrontiers

How much is the actual real taste of your coffee skewed by the number of plots and graphs you have in your head at the Time of brewing ☕

Are these graphs and plots a total waste of time and energy for a bag of a particular coffee Blend.

For what it’s worth in blind tests with my mediocre setup and no sieve analysis or data to hand my wife prefers her Americano from the Duo whilst I prefer my Latte from my HG-1 prime.

Guess that supports some of the data at least

Does anyone on here enjoy a great cup of coffee more than running a full sieve analysis first 🫣

MWJB

FadedFrontiers No, that’s why I asked for them. I don’t doubt other burrs and grinders will shift the flavour profile somewhat. It would be good to know how/why, then what to buy.

I haven’t used the Duo for espresso. I have for filter and haven’t had the urge to replace my Zero.

chlorox

MWJB
I have only come across this chart that appears to have been made by ssp though there’s no confirmation of that. http://www.espressotool.com/?idx=3

I have not had the chance of trying the zero or duo. I don’t know the technicalities of particle distribution etc. I don’t know if the theory that more unimodal distribution imparts greater clarity because they have less fines is true or not.

I do experentially know however the taste profile of 68mm compak k10 conical burrs and 64mm ssp mp and ssp cast burrs in my df64’s on all sorts of roast levels and differrnt types of beans. There is a very palpable and consistent difference and I cannot detect the flavour subtleties on the k10 conical burrs that I can find on my ssp equipped df64’s. Instead the former seems to blend it together. When I compare my experience with others on forums, it seems to be universally experienced. Hence whatever the reason, there seems to be much higher levels of clarity on these ssp burrs especially the mp, and more body on those conical burrs.

I don’t base my decisions on particle distribution charts which i dont understand all that much but on my own taste buds, which I do. After all charts cannot tell u if it tastes good to u. So I want ssp burrs in my grinder because I want that clarity because ssp burrs give me that quality consistently. I dont need a chart or a theory to tell me what my taste buds want…

As for some level of objectivity, most people who have commented on ssp burrs on forums that i have come across and use them seem to agree with my experience.

Don’t u also experience subjectively the same results?

FadedFrontiers

MWJB No, that’s why I asked for them. I don’t doubt other burrs and grinders will shift the flavour profile somewhat. It would be good to know how/why, then what to buy.

I meant the Hoff data, interested to see other representations of it and alternatives findings. Appreciate he’s in a unique position to have one in house.

Adrianmsmith

I sold the zero In favour or the df83 and sold the df83 in favour or the duo . For analysis though I just used my wife and my taste buds. Hg-1 prime still the best for me!! Perhaps I’m missing a Key

🫣😜🤔

Sorry, I really should take this much more seriously ☕

delta76

I think people are reacting as if James’ review put Duo in a negative light. I think his view is pretty positive, albeit the shortcomings. James very rarely reviews a product without pointing out nitpicks and quirks, and for some products that is almost perfect in his view, he also pointed out how outrageously expensive it is.

I do think his criticism is valid. Not every one change burrs regularly. For espresso burr it is not different from zero. Filter burr is good but then why not something like Fellow Ode with other burr options, cheaper, smaller and just as good if not better. He also praised how smooth the process is and how well it is built, so the criticism is one fairly easy to fix with a new all around burr option.

chlorox

delta76
Well said. I think it is clear that the duo represents a strong challenger in the 83mm market and that this shortcoming can be addressed easily by just adding another burr option.

drdre89

The Niche team trying to develop a new set of burrs for the Duo after the Hoff review …

delta76

drdre89 they already have a great platform. Slap in some 83mm and pick one that perform the best for both filter and espresso, and voila!

Easier said than done yes but they have put a lot of thoughts in designing Duo. Time to reap the result

dfk41

Since the review claimed that there was no taste difference between the Zero and the Duo, am I the only one to disagree? I think he is talking bollocks personally!

delta76

dfk41 @MediumRoastSteam said same thing, was he talking bollocks then? :)

No offense, but it is important to dial in both grinders and blind test the espressos. Can you consistently tell which is which? James has no interest to oversell or undersell the duo (compared to Zero). It is the same company

drdre89

dfk41 Since the review claimed that there was no taste difference between the Zero and the Duo, am I the only one to disagree? I think he is talking bollocks personally!

I used to own the Zero, and yes I can taste a difference.

delta76

The problem is that if a non famous reviewer dares to say they don’t taste the difference, they risk losing credibility and viewership. How can you trust someone who can’t taste the conical vs flat burr difference when everyone else can? Even @MediumRoastSteam faced some backslash when he said that (I did not find his post but I assume nobody really took him seriously)

A world renowned barista like James does not need that validation and he can say honestly and candidly about his taste. As I said above he has no interest in praising or bashing Duo compared to Zero, and with his reputation, I’d rather trust him on this one

MediumRoastSteam

delta76 - the search functionality in this platform is far from ideal. I spent a good 5 minutes trying to find it, but also failed.

Cuprajake

I could taste a difference as could the Mrs. I used her as a guinea pig lol

And at the time I had the Evo set up to do identical shots and the grinders were dialed in for the same shot parameters.

So I have bo clue what happened when Hoffman tested his, I’d like to think he was very strict.

I always described the duo Vs zero as the duo presenting milk chocolate and the zero giving dark chocolate. Wether that’s a big enough difference I don’t know. It was enough though for someone on discord to take the piss out of me.

I’m lucky I have both grinders here
But I also favoured the major over the zero too. The zero was bought as I know it’s set and forget, perfect for the Mrs and unlike most other sub £500 grinders will still sell for near asking if she didn’t like it.

dfk41

When I was testing the Duo, I had it set up for quite a time against the Zero regularly pulling shots on both. I drink medium to medium dark coffee and not once could I not tell the difference. The rest of the time I had the filter burrs in. I personally preferred the taste of the conical, but there again, I always have. I cannot comment on what Alberto or anyone else experienced

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam delta76 - the search functionality in this platform is far from ideal. I spent a good 5 minutes trying to find it, but also failed.

Here’s one https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1851-coffee-with-duo/187

and a post of comparisons from another member @Latte-Tart @latt who had both. I don’t think they have been on for a while though. well in fairness they visit, but have not posted in a while…which is a shame.

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1605-niche-duo-83mm-flat/484

Platypus

I wonder what the roast level was of the beans he used and how many different types of beans ( origin , process ) he experimented with?
I would imagine the difference between the Niche and Duo with a really fruity lighter roasted bean would be much more noticeable than the difference between an “omni” more developed roast?

Cuprajake

BrendaninBrooklyn

Cuprajake Jake, this is very informative. Thank you for posting. And I’ve learned LH can be more thoughtful than I’d imagined.

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