My Sage Barista Express, my first espresso machine has popped it's clogs I fear (though Sage have offered me a 40% discount if I buy another BE) I had thought of upgrading. The way I use my espresso machine is that I make two morning flat whites or two cappuccini each morning and rarely anything else, though an afternoon cortado wouldn't go amiss. It'd also be nice to be able to make 4 to 6 back to back coffees on the rare times we have friends around. Though I could solve that problem with a French Press or my Moka. Because of my usage it's not clear whether I need more than a single boiler hence the following list which is a mix of single, hx and double. I would like a timer since I tend to like to monitor the shot in terms of weight and output time. Needless to say I'd be buying a better grinder. So this is my 'short' list: 1. the ECM Classika II PID, 2. the Lelit MaraX 3. the Lelit Elizabeth 4. the ACS Minima Does anyone have any thoughts or recommendations on those 4 machines or am I missing one that knocks them out of the water? I'm slowly thinking I have to spend £1,300 but would prefer to be spending £700, but then wouldn't we all. Thanks

You will also need to factor in a grinder which is equally if not more important than the machine itself. Does your budget include a grinder as well?

I sort of feel it's better looking at the Dual boiler options for you, but that does increase the price. One big advantage is the steam boiler wouldn't have to be left on and in an HX the steam boiler is always on, in effect.

Replacing a Sage Barista Express - help me decide... please

Cuprajake

options 3 or 4 for me,

more repeatability, plus the minima is on sale with black cat coffee atm

dutchy101

Cuprajake plus the minima is on sale with black cat coffee atm

All sold out. I got the last black one and @BiggerBen got the last white one. None in stainless left either

Java_avaJ

dutchy101 Yes, I noticed they’d all sold out at Black Cat. There is one for sale on this forum but I’m nervous about buying second hand since a warranty is so useful - especially given my Sage BE is trashed and only 6 months out of warranty.

Java_avaJ

Lake_M I’ve got a Niche Zero on order, which I believe will do for French Press and Moka in addition to espresso. So no, the budget doesn’t include a grinder

dutchy101

Someone is selling a year old Minima on this forum at a great price

Edit - just seen your next post.

To be honest Sage machines do have a bot of a reputation for breaking down and parts are very hard to source and they are notoriously expensive to fix.

The Minima is a different level in terms of bud quality, availability of parts etc.

Java_avaJ

DavecUK and would you have preference over the Elizabeth and the Minima since they’re both dual boilers?

DavecUK

Java_avaJ and would you have preference over the Elizabeth and the Minima since they’re both dual boilers?

I’ve got both, like em both, perhaps a soft spot for the Minima, for the simplicity and raw power, BUT, the Elizabeth is very clever.

Java_avaJ

DavecUK I need to go back tomorrow and reread your two reviews to remind myself of the differences in detail. Off the top of my head they both had easy to adjust pressures and temperatures, both had solenoid 61 groups so no lube issues after back-flushing. The Elizabeth did 2 types of preinfusion and had presets you could program but doesn’t have a shot timer in its LCC display whereas the Minima does, and I do find the timer useful.

The Elizabeth will be easier to keep nice looking with its satin finish rather polished finish.

Is the Minima more flimsy with thinner guage stainless?

dutchy101

Java_avaJ The Elizabeth will be easier to keep nice looking with its satin finish rather polished finish

Minima also comes in black and white. And as DavecUK can testify, turquoise

Cuprajake

Minima isnt thin by any measure

Can add flow control too,

Only thing i didnt like was the pump noise. But mine was in a corner under cabinets which didnt help, but im super sound sensitive

DavecUK

Giphy - listen big ears GIF by SWR Kindernetz

DavecUK

dutchy101 Minima also comes in black and white. And as DavecUK can testify, turquoise

I’ve not seen another “Turquoise” one since.

]

Java_avaJ

@DavecUK
And no danger of the paint peeling?
Pity turquoise isn’t an option I’d go for that

DavecUK

Java_avaJ And no danger of the paint peeling?

As Jake said, its powder coat and ACS don’t do the coating in house.

Cuprajake

Its powder coat so super hard wearing

dutchy101

I think you can ‘order’ the turquoise from Caffe Italia. Whether or not you ever actually receive it is another matter

Java_avaJ

DavecUK ACS don’t do the powder coat in house, that sounds like a bad thing perhaps? However good a paint coat is it’s a coat of paint and on a metal that must expand and contract with the heat it’s surely bound to crack and peel after a year or two - anyone got any experience of that?

I think I’m sold on the Minima. I’m not sure I need or would use some of the extras on the Elizabeth and can anyone confirm whether the Elizabeth has the E61 Solenoid Operated Group which the Minima has and which sounds such a good idea to reduce work lubing after backflushing?

DavecUK

Java_avaJ ACS don’t do the powder coat in house, that sounds like a bad thing perhaps? However good a paint coat is it’s a coat of paint and on a metal that must expand and contract with the heat it’s surely bound to crack and peel after a year or two - anyone got any experience of that?

ACS will do what they do well, but They leave the powder coating to expert powder coaters…They Leave main board firmware programming to Gicar, the board manufacturers. Case laser cuttiing and, polishing to the sheet metal company.

e.g. You may not know but ACS make their own refrigeration systems for slushie machines etc.., seal them, use special copper tube as well, very smooth and clean inside, higher grade than standard stuff. That’s the same tubing in your machines. Probably doesn’t make any difference (meant to corrode less), but that’s the tube they have in stock.

I’m not an expert on powder coat, but it’s a slightly flexible coating, so shouldn’t crack or peel. They did have a few problems a long time ago at first when they didn’t powder coat directly onto stainless, but that was changed pretty quickly, they learn their lesson. Allow wheels on Cars are powder coated and they stand up remarkably well considering the very harsh environment they are in.

https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/powder-coat-stainless-steel

Java_avaJ

@DavecUK thank you very much indeed for all your answers, and indeed everyone else who’s commented and lent me their time and expertise.

It does make it very difficult to decide I must say. At the moment I just can’t choose between the Elizabeth and the Minima, they both do exactly what I want, the Elizabeth with some extra bells and whistles that might make a quick morning coffee easier, but perhaps not much, the pre-infusion is attractive but the power of the Minima for steaming might well mean I could do one jug of milk for our 2 morning coffees which would save some time.

I see no clear ‘winner’ and unless someone replies to suggest that one is better than the other for the following reasons it might well come down to which Mrs Java_avaJ says she prefers the look of ;-)

Cuprajake

You can add flow control to the minima should you want to control flow

The pump in the liz is quieter than the minima though