Dave has posted a thread on [energy prices! ](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/260-energy-prices) How do we save some precious pounds, considering we are going to be battered with another 51% hike in April and may be more in going forward? * Insulation - Would certainly consider this * Check the windows and doors to see if they are good * Energy alternatives - heavy investment. Is it worth it, leaving aside embracing greens? The electricity is already 100% green Solar panels - probably the cheapest alternative Biomass - no view Heat pump - too expensive and massive energy loss en route home Wind turbine These affect all of us. Some will opine we will be happy to keep the current status in our life time. Fair enough! 😊 What do you guys think? Thx Thx

Well like many we since living here we have had extra loft insulation, cavity wall insulation and double galzing put in. Last year our conservatory was about 20 years old and so we had new frames windows and a solid roof put on it. The difference that made was unbelievable. Before during the winter it was freezing even with a big radiator and air conditioning unit that blew out warm air. In the summer it was unbearably hot and the air conditioner had to be on all the time so you can imagine how much leccy that used. Since putting on the proper roof we've had the Big wall mounted air conditioner take out and it is perfect in both the winter (warm and cosey) and in the summer comfortable to sit in. Our neighbours just had an Air source heat pump fitted about four months ago. First they had to have wall insulation pumped in (1982 built house didn't have them) and then two week later the air source heat pump fitted which not including the price of the insulation cost about 12k. Will be interesting to see what they think of it by the end of this winter both efficiency and cost wise. My new combi I had two years ago cost me about 2k fitted. Now I know it's not eco friendly, but I simply do not have the sort of money needed to fit either air source heat pumps or solar. I think ALL new houses should be fitted with solar, maybe air source heat pumps or an eco alternative for heating and a tank in the loft to catch rain water to flush the loos. But no government will pass that as law.

@"Pompeyexile"#p4741 Very useful insights indeed. Many thanks. The heat pump costs do not surprise me at all. That cost looks conservative to me. It will be useful if you could come back with a view after the winter. Ours is 1980 built. I am not sure if the walls have had the cavity wall insulted. I do see signs of it on external walls, though. The previous owner said he had put 200 mm loft insulation. For all of us, probably it’s worth taking a look to see what needs to be done to keep the energy bills down. As far as the eco alternatives are concerned, it’s about striking a balance — running costs, efficiency, and investment! Difficult period ahead for all of us for sure. 😌

Are solar panels really a cost option these days? I have not kept up with things, but presumably now you have to pay the full installation costs yourself (unless you 'rent' out your roof space) then get the benefit of free electricity whilst it is generating with ny excess being pumped back into the system. With the current cost of electricity being so high, does it make sense buying in to help alive a temporary situation?

my electric is 100% renewable but its doubled so not sre how that works haha

Wow, drawn in by the headline quote I applied for further information. The advertised cost of £3650 has grown to £11,995.......

> @"Pompeyexile"#p4741 Our neighbours just had an Air source heat pump fitted about four months ago. First they had to have wall insulation pumped in (1982 built house didn’t have them) and then two week later the air source heat pump fitted which not including the price of the insulation cost about 12k. Will be interesting to see what they think of it by the end of this winter both efficiency and cost wise. The problem is they will have made it into the renweable heat incentive…RFHI which means their electricity is well subsidised as they get a payout for every kW of heat they generate. e.g. below shows the rate for a 3 bedroom house. If they use 17,000kWh per year, they get £1844 back, the RHI is capped at 20,000 kwH So by their examples a 3 bed semi will be £3230 of electric heat generated, but they will pay you 1844 for the **kW you generated,** making the bill only £1386 (if you generated it at a 1:1 cop , **these are the current rates, people who got in years ago get much higher rates".** So far this sounds great 8p per unit, even better when the COP is about 3 ish, as the payment is based around what you **generate**, not what you consume to generate it. So it actually works our at 8/3 pence per unit….or **2.66p per unit true cost.** This is absolutely fantastico, because gas it about 3p per unit. It's also why when they got a grant for the system and a few years ago were paying virtually nothing, some people even made money, they are all bloody evangelists. Now reality needs to kick in, The RHI stops in April 22!!!!! To heat tht 3 bed semi will take 17000kWhr for the year, **with a COP of 3 average**, that's 5667 units of electricity required at ***19p per unit current prices this comes to £1077 to heat your house, vs £510 for gas.*** So those who got in a few years ago are super enthusiastic, the truth is that for the rest of us, it will cost considerably more and I have not included water heating costs, which will be far higher, or the fact that you have to have the systems on all the time in case…whereas gas can be reduced if it warms up. It doesn't include the very high installation costs for most homes (much higher than quoted and iot certainly doesn't include the CAP, for larger or less efficient homes using 20,000kW per year!!! https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/renewable-heat-incentive/article/renewable-heat-incentive-rhi/rhi-costs-and-earnings-auJtQ4P32RWW [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/tbUhEVX.png]

@"dfk41"#p4754 Is that for the solar panel?

It most certainly is[URL=https://i.imgur.com/UQpmRr5.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/UQpmRr5.png[/IMG][/URL]

> @"DavecUK"#p4757 If they use 17,000kWh per year, they get £1844 back, the RHI is capped at 20,000 kwH So, if the 4 or 5 beds consume > 20K, there are no incentives / subsidies, are they ? > @"DavecUK"#p4757 it will cost considerably more and I have not included water heating costs > @"DavecUK"#p4757 It doesn’t include the very high installation costs for most homes Welcome to rip-off Britain! 😂 ![Giphy - scared season 1 GIF by The White Princess](https://media4.giphy.com/media/3oKIPb7sHFQ9Irn54Y/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869fz8rsafapaleok8idewtv302ngv5q4xdyi4g03edr&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

> @"LMSC"#p4770 So, if the 4 or 5 beds consume > 20K, there are no incentives / subsidies, are they ? Not on anything above 20k Kwh…but of course after April, the RHI is finished for new installations!!!

Green energy

Dumnorix

DavecUK

To make it even worse, it’s probably already more expensive to charge an electric car away from home per per mile travelled than Petrol

I calculated this recently as a result of a query on an electric car forum I also contribute to. At 42p per kWh (good price currently for a public rapid charger) I worked out that putting the equivalent of 450 miles of range on my Nissan Leaf would cost £48, as opposed to over £60 in Diesel for my previous ICE car. Obviously home prices aren’t that expensive - yet! However it does depend on how economical the ICE car is and how many miles per kWh the EV is capable of doing.

Pompeyexile

Dumnorix Well, when I take a trip to my father-in-laws from here in North Yorkshire to Oxfordshire I do a charge either on the way down or on the way back and get it for 27p kWh at a big Tesco with a coffee shop just ¼ mile off the motorway. I’ll admit if I went to an Instavolt Charger, then it would be extortionate, but using a thing called ZapMap I pick and choose where I charge publicly on the rare ocassions I need to, because as you say, I nearly always charge at home. Only if the overall journey I am going to do is over 260 odd miles, do I need to use the public charging system.

Meldrew

The problem is we do not have the generating capacity now so what happens when we all have to plug our cars in, it’s going to be interesting to say the least. And when the new power station that EDF are building comes on line what will the final cost to us as the consumer have to pay for our electric. Come on RR with the SMR. Where is the investment from or Government for home born development.

LMSC

DavecUK think when prices go up, and the April rise won’t be the only one….people might wake up and smell the coffee. especially as China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 coal power units

Global warming and climate change are our serious problems. Every one knows. The sea levels are increasing, the areas that had never floods in 50-100 years are regularly flooded, frequency and severity of NATCAT events steadily go North, and yet we won’t meet the Paris climate change target.

It’s a collective responsibility. Unfortunately, we are failing collectively, negatively impacting the have nots.

DavecUK

LMSC My concern is, the UKs headlong, unplanned, blind dash to net zero might leave us so badly off, 2 very undesirable things could happen.

we absolutely screw ourselves.
Other countries that can have a big impact on climate change, see how badly it went for us, and think…hmm perhaps not.

I’m all for saving the environment and try to be as green as I can afford to be. I’m just worried the UKs reach is exceeding it’s grasp, in it’s race for net zero. We need to take the time to plan and prepare.

LMSC

DavecUK Absolutely. While I am very happy we are the champions of sustainability and climate change, I am equally worried our initiatives are just a drop in the ocean. Sure, we are good at shooting ourselves on our foot.

I do not know where these are going to lead us; but, a lack of similar measures from biggies mean more climate change disaster and economic woes in the future. Initially, I thought our children and theirs will pay the price for our mistakes. Alas! No, we will pay in our old age.

We in the UK will pay more because we are a charity !

Unfortunately, no body seems to care except a few countries. If we read the world economic forum report - 2022 — they list infectious diseases, climate action failure, biodiversity loss, man-made disasters as biggest risks by impact. They have been putting these out for a very long time.

We can only pray to God to save us all gracefully from what ever is in store. I hope these developments are not His way of taking control of our Mother Earth!

Del_UK

I’ve been fitting solar panels on and off for about 10 years.
When I started a system cost £12k+ for a basic inverter and the maximum 4kw of panels, you could have have more on a domestic property but the golden feed in tariff (FIT) was for 4kw, which got you >40p per KW PRODUCED. This means that even if you use every kw you make on the roof, you still get paid. This usually worked out that a system would pay for itself in about 5-7 years if you could use most of your solar energy. Things like heating/hot water monitoring/transfer systems cost extra but cut the time down your return on investment (ROI) paying off.

When the government (insert strong language words here) with the FIT and cut the tariff down to 20p ish, the solar industry fell to bits and hundreds of people lost jobs here in the south west. It also meant that it became expensive to buy and fit solar panels. The ROI went from 5-7 up to 12+ years. Energy prices were still low and Greta wasn’t old enough to put on TV yet… I went from fitting several systems a week to, in fearing redundancy and moving to another company, fitting only commercial and industrial solar installations, 50-150kw+, once in a blue moon.

Now however, systems cost a heck of a lot less and energy prices are getting (insert strong language words here) stupid. I’m on 21p/kw and that’s locked in for another 3 years. After that who knows. A solar setup now costs a lot less so is becoming a lot more appealing. The max you can output is now only 16A (about 3.6kw) unless you get a letter from your DNO (distribution national operator) and for a half decent kit, you’re looking at about £3-5k fitted. You only get about 4p per kw you EXPORT now but the rising energy costs are making it so it’s back down to 5 or so years to pay for itself for many.

I’m finally fitting some to my roof this year and the kit will cost me £1700 ish. and fitting will be cheap as I have a low East/West roof that I can reach off of a standard tower so I’m not paying anything for the install.

Long story short, I’m happy to answer questions if you have any and I can answer them!

LMSC

Del_UK Interesting you say £3k- £5k ish. @dfk41 got a quote for £12K — all inclusive.

Dumnorix

Del_UK
I have a South facing roof. We have gas heating but my wife is in a lot during the day constantly boiling a kettle full of water as she is an instant coffee addict! We could also put the washing machine/ tumble dryer on in daylight hours. I had a company come out and say they could fit a 2.5kw system- I have 2 skylights which unfortunately reduce the space. They said they would send me a quote but then never did despite me contacting them twice to remind them- I could only think that it was a relatively small job and they couldn’t be bothered. The only question I have is whether a 2.5kw array is worth it- the guy who came was very vague about how much I could potentially save. I realise this is an impossible question to give a precise answer to, but I would have thought he should have been able to give me some sort of idea.

Del_UK

LMSC

That price includes about £4-5k worth of battery storage and about 50% more panels (18x£160ish vs 10 on a 3.7kw system) which would be there to only supply the battery as the DNO will not allow a system to be signed off, therefore not getting any FIT payments, if it is over 3.6ish kw. Once the battery is charged, on a sunny day the inverter/battery/panels will simply stop the system producing at max capacity.

LMSC

Del_UK So, you reckon it is worth going the green alternatives ? Would you recommend solar panels over other alternatives?

Del_UK

LMSC

There’s a whole bunch of variables. Are you in during the day often, do you heat using electric, do you uses a lot of electric, do you have a south facing roof with a clear view of the sky?

Most manufactures warranty PV equipment for at least 10 years unless it’s a naff brand. Solar Edge (who I’m going to use) give 12 years on inverters and 25 years on optimisers. So you should be able to pay for the next PV system in the time it takes to fail.

I’ve not really encountered other renewable energy solutions professionally, so I can’t really say. I was considering a small (3kw) wind turbine, but I’ve not got a perfect spot for it.

LMSC

Del_UK Are you in during the day often, do you heat using electric, do you uses a lot of electric, do you have a south facing roof with a clear view of the sky?

I work from home especially after the pandemic.
Gas is used for heating, bizzare electricity charges are higher than the gas. I set the central heater at around 17-17.5. It is at * - 1 in unused rooms.
Ours is a perfect west facing property

Del_UK

LMSC

Might be worth looking into then. If curious, look at the MCS website, https://mcscertified.com/
They are the governing body that look after the PV and other green industries. I can speak from experience, they are pretty hot on who they give licences to!

LMSC

Del_UK Will take a look. Thx

Del_UK

Dumnorix

A 2.5kw system at peak will be able to mostly offset a washer or dryer (the quick and dirty equation is watts/volts=amps though for AC power it’s not exact so 2500/230=10.9A which is slightly more than a standard white good). This will save you, based on 22p per kw 22×2.5=55p per hour. A rough estimation based on 6 hours of peak production average per day throughout the year would be .55×6(365)=£1205 saved per year assuming you use every kw.

When not using any power you’ll export about 2kw (accounting for any amount of ambient use) which is about 11p per hour you’ll earn from an export tariff, though you may get more depending on who you sell to. .11×6(365)=£240 but you’ll also offset your .5kw assuming 2.5kw at 6 hours per day so savings+earnings will be about £500-600 per year.

As you can see, it’s much better if you are going to use what you produce.

These are all estimates based on ideal situations. We had 26 hours of sunshine in December in Plymouth. In July last year we had 1.5x the usual amount of sunny, cloudless days, a factory we fitted 98kw on was producing near peak levels from about 0900-1800.

Have a look at the MCS website for approved installers in your area. I’d be surprised if many places turned you away for only wanting 2.5kw. Most money is made from the labour, and the install time isn’t that different from a 4kw as the infrastructure is the same other than physical cable sizes and the number of panels.

Hope this makes sense. I’m roasting as I type so I’ve been distracted a few times!

Dumnorix

Del_UK
Many thanks for a very comprehensive reply. It seems like possible savings could be reasonably good- although I appreciate your comment regarding ideal conditions. I will search for another company and see if I can get a quote. What would be a reasonable price for a 2.5kw array fully installed?

Del_UK

Dumnorix

It’s a bit like asking how much is a reasonable cost for an espresso setup, £100 to £10000+ wouldn’t be out the question..

Panels can cost as little as £70-80 and an inverter starts at £400 for 2.2kw, but you could pay £200+ per panel and have a £800+ inverter and fit a load of smart systems to power boilers/charge cars etc.

I’d say, without knowing the roof/electrical condition/property size, that about £1700-£2200 for materials and about £35-45 per hour labour depending on ease of install. Don’t forget you’ll likely need scaffolding and the paperwork to sign it all off.

pete10uk

Interesting and timely post.

we’re Just about to sign up to an Air Source Heat Pump system. We are in a 4 bed detached 1969 house where the heating it on its last legs, needs new boiler and has old poorly fitted single pipe system. The quote we are going for is £16.5k with a complete re pipe and new radiators. The grant over the next 7 years amounts to £11.5k so will cost 5k for a complete new heating system. At todays prices there looks to be a £220 shortfall on electricity each year so the running will cost more.

I know it’s not cheep but we are looking at insulating the external walls to the property in the next few years. Once installed we will be completely off gas, and will look maybe with the kind offer of advice from @Del_UK to install some solar to help supply electricity. My main concern is that with a combi boiler, in the hotter months we only pay to heat as much hot water as we use, which could be quite low but with the heat pump we need to keep 200l hot all the time all year round, which is where the solar would really ease my concerns.

LMSC

pete10uk Useful information. Thx

I have no idea how these works.

So, you will be 5K out of pocket after grants, and still need solar panels for electricity?

Why do you need to have 200L hot water 24 × 7 × 365 please ? Did the person advise what the running costs of this alone ?

Cuprajake

I thought heater pumps were only used with under floor heating.

LMSC

Cuprajake I was looking at it . It is very effective for underfloor heating; looks like the standard radiators are not efficient. They must be replaced by an over-sized radiator, which is a no go!

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