What’s the latest on tamping. Do you tamp full force to compress to the max? Or do you hand tamp to a practiced force/pressure (ie rely on muscle memory)? If so, how hard do you tamp? Or do you tamp with a spring and self leveling tamper, to try and tamp to the same force every time? If so, what force? I haven’t been paying attention to this for a while as I have an EazyTamp that is self leveling and has a spring that apparently guides you to tamp at a specified force, if you release when it bottoms. Not sure how well this works. And … do you double tamp? I’m thinking that I should now be tamping heavily, to fully compress the grounds and eliminate this variable, as I suspect that my tamping pressure variability (sometimes releasing when the tamper bottoms but other times pressing longer) may be causing some shot inconsistency. So forget relying on the spring and just tamp to the max.

Have a look at lance Hedricks videos on YouTube, it explains all of your questions

> @"Redla"#p69387 Have a look at lance Hedricks videos on YouTube, it explains all of your questions I appreciate your suggestion. He did a stereo typical Lance’s next big thing video on double tamping, if that’s what you are referring to. Not sure whether it was before or after Lance’s Blind Shaker next big thing video. Now the abbreviation for Blind Shaker has the letters B and S in it… Or his epiphany video on sorting your beans; seriously? Sorry but I stopped watching LH videos a while ago. Just can’t take the hyperbole.

PS Just changed the spring in my tamper to 15 kilos (33 lbs). That force will ensure that the grounds are fully compressed. That solves that variable. As for double tamping, from my perspective it’s double the potential for trouble. Best to tamp once, fully and right. Done!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145625657918?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=GwMdq2KuQN6&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=8nPtpNt4SJC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY Copy of a force tamper I use. Very good for the money

@"JHCCoffee"#p69385 I manually tamp. Arm straight, vertical, elbow 90.6 degrees!! Force. If your eyes actually pop out you over did it 👀 Really, firm but not until you cant press any more . Eye up the tamp and portafilter so you are at 0 degrees , level. I dont think it matters until theres an obvious slope? I tamp, spin a bit and tamp again. More of a habit i guess.

I use the force tamper - tamp twice - seems consistent and tbh I dont think much more about it. I have quite a few of the different bases for it and again other than a pretty pattern I dont notice a difference in the outcome. Cheers Matt

For quite some time I haven't been the least bit concerned with the latest/greatest whatever technique as I find what works for me and leave it at that. After having tamped tens of thousands of extractions with a very basic tamper I decided to go with a heavy duty palm tamper. I have the depth set to give me the exact amount of headspace I like and simply vary the dose weight by a few tenths +/- depending on the coffee/density being used. My tamper of choice is the JoeFrex LevelTamp. Weighs in at 2.5 lbs. and once I grind/dose I sit it on top of the mound, lightly spin a bit which does a great job of distributing/leveling from the weight alone, then press slightly until it bottoms out on the basket rim and done. Gives a great sidewall seal, no mess/fuss and will last my lifetime and beyond.

Tamping

dfk41

Coffee is full of coffee bolloc*s……things that logically are hard to argue with, but present two problems. Firstly, exactly how much difference, on their own do they actually make ( 0.00000001%) and secondly, do you really have the tastebuds to notice? If you add milk to your coffee, you may as well tamp with a baked bean lid for all the difference you will be able to notice. I have said for years, I make two sorts of coffee, those I drink and those I do not

Adrianmsmith

dfk41 If you add milk to your coffee, you may as well tamp with a baked bean lid for all the difference you will be able to notice. I have said for years, I make two sorts of coffee, those I drink and those I do not

Sorry mate but have to totally disagree with you. Has your account been hacked?

I only drink milk drinks BUT theres a vast taste difference if i get everything right or wrong.

I see a lot of comments saying if you (are a heathen and) dont drink espresso then you may as well have no technique or good equipment . Total bull. I cant get to like espresso at all. Maybe never will . I keep trying.

I find vast taste differences with different beans and if not dialled in correctly. Similarly a stupidly light tamp v a decent tamp .

dfk41

Adrianmsmith And I disagree with you, to a point. You said

Adrianmsmith if i get everything right or wrong.

Tamping is just one very small part of that process and relies on several other constituent parts to go right as well. Looks like you need to practice more

Adrianmsmith

dfk41

Not really. This is not about practise. The comment was meant to illustrate that there is a vast difference in taste with milk drinks if I get it right or wrong or let me change that to if I do it right or deliberately wrong.

I do not agree that milk drinks taste the same no matter how you make them which is the point I was making.

If you can’t taste the difference with milk drinks made from different beans or dialled in correctly or incorrectly, then I’d suggest the problem is not with the milk drinks.

dfk41

Adrianmsmith f you can’t taste the difference with milk drinks made from different beans or dialled in correctly or incorrectly, then I’d suggest the problem is not with the milk drinks.

That is not what we were talking about! I am stating, that if all other variables remain the same (which is impossible outside of laboratory conditions) then if you tamp slightly incorrectly and take milk you are kidding yourself if you think you can detect the minute difference. Even I, with kippers for tastebuds can tell the difference in taste between different bean varietals! This is one reason why I only drink blended coffee with milk

HarveyMushman

Yeah milk drinks can taste vastly different. I’ve said it before but fruity Ethiopian coffees for example can taste fantastic with milk almost like a berry cake flavour.

Whereas you get the milk chocolate or nut notes with say a med-dark Brazil blend.

On topic I’ve actually pulled a fairly decent shot without tamping at all in the past by accident forgetting to tamp. The pressure from the group is going to compress the coffee pretty quickly so all you’re really wanting to do is start that process off with an even pressure on a flat surface.

HarveyMushman

Ah yes I see what you mean. Yes difference in tamp pressure would be undetectable with milk added.

I’m not sure I could even taste the difference in tamp pressure without milk.

Adrianmsmith

HarveyMushman

@dfk41

Are we talking the kind of difference we naturally get (few kg ) or from barely tamping to “normal”, obvs in a standard non-pressurised basket ….

HarveyMushman

Tbh I’m not even sure it matters that much. I’ve never measured actual tamping weight, just kind of wing it.

Cuprajake

milk… Giphy - sick puke GIF

LMSC

It probably matters if one wants to take this variable out of the equation or drink black.

However, with all respect to those relish milk-based coffee, adding milk would hide most of the brew malfunction including tamping, distribution. We are of course assuming other things being equal.

Assuming other variables are constant, will a super taster be able to tell the difference between perfectly tamped flat white or black and otherwise ? Neither I am a super taster nor aspiring to be one! 😊

MattH

LMSC Thank goodness 😂 from a mess to pleasantly drinkable in one swift pour….

Tbh I very rarely drink it as espresso - so how it tastes with decently frothed milk is my goal !

JHCCoffee

This thread has certainly digressed…

Back to tamping. From my perspective, upto x pounds of force, the grounds are not fully compressed. Can’t remember what X is, but I do know that at 30 lbs force, the grounds are fully compressed. So tamping at 30 lbs removes the variable of having a puck that is more vs less compressed, due to variability in tamping force.

And this does make a difference. Just run two shots at the same grind, one very lightly tamped and one heavily tamped. The first shot will run faster (ie higher flow rate) than the second. This can make as much difference as adjusting the grind. And flow rate does affect taste. I adjust flow rate (and other factors) on my Decent to give me the taste I want.

At some force level, the grounds are fully compacted and increases in force no longer make a difference. So … I’m tampering 30 pounds to eliminate the force variable; I don’t trust my muscle memory to tamp at an exact lower force. So I use the spring in my tamper, which is calibrated to 33 pounds, to tamp to maximum grounds compression. Having eliminated this variable, I can focus on others.

Adrianmsmith

JHCCoffee

That i do agree with .

I would assume once you get above 10 lb force up to your suggested 30 or 33 lb force there would be very little difference.

I would assume up to 10 lb force. It will be similar to course grinding.

I do intend to investigate this. I meant to on my last cup but muscle memory and foolishness took over and i Did a real tamp

Cuprajake

it depends on the machine you are using but 9 bar is 130 psi and even with a 4 bar infusion thats still 60psi

so hand tamping is going to be under what the puck sees in full flow,

there was talk that over 9bars you see a secondary compression of the puck, but forget the outcome,

personally from tamping once to twice, ive noticed less channeling with one tamp vs two, may be in the head though as all my shots look like $hit using high flow baskets and light roasts

the bigger question for me is puck depth, the 54mm of the evo works so much better than the 58mm of anything

Adrianmsmith

Cuprajake

And I was just contemplating buying that Decent. That’s saved me a bit. Thank you. 😜🥰

JHCCoffee

@Cuprajake @JammyDodger and other Decent users

Hmmm …. I’ve just switched my EazyTamp tamper spring from 7 KG to 14 KG. It slowed the flow dramatically to 0.8 ml/sec, such that I had to increase my Niche Zero grind from 11.5 to so far 13 and I am still just at 1 ml/sec vs 1.3/sec previously. Pressure is still through the roof and taste is now (because of grind coarsening) abit sour, which a 1 degree C temperature increase didn’t counter. But if I grind finer, to counter the sourness, flow will slow even further. Thinking of going back to my 7 KG spring. What the….

I’m using a EPHQ14 basket (slower flow) basket dosed to 17g (for strength). This worked well in the past. Obviously there is just too much puck resistance, so maybe I should reduce the dose while maintaining the same brew ratio. I’m 17 in, 25 out now, so I would try 16 in 23.5 out and 15 in 22 out. This would solve the too slow flow issue. Then I could grind finer, to solve the sourness. Alternatively I could go to a somewhat faster flow basket; I have a Big Bang.

Funny how we have something that works well and then we are compelled to tinker with it. It’s all part of the game, for us espresso aficionados.

JammyDodger

Hmm… I would reduce all variables as much as possible. Dose at the amount suggested for the basket, tamp to full compression, and see where you are with just a standard profile like LRv3.