I watched a YouTube video from Lance Hedrick yesterday where he suggested that 58mm espresso baskets might not be the best choice for the best espresso. Interested in whether anyone here has any thoughts on the matter? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p69629 A topic with multiple discussion threads on Reddit, H-B, etc -- the net seems to be no, diameter is not the factor; bed depth is. Use larger doses with 58mm to achieve greater depth. Old news except it seems, to Lance.

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69640 Ok, thank you. This stuff is still new to me and I’m not familiar with the stuff you mention!

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69640 So why aren’t people using big doses in big baskets with 58mm? Most people I encounter don’t do that? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p69647 You are welcome. I believe many do based on the threads I read. No first-hand knowledge though as my La Pavoni is 49mm. If you Google likely you'll find the same threads. Have fun !

My history with espresso has been a succession of levers (Ponte Vecchio, Caravel, Cremina etc) with less than 58mm baskets. When I got the Robot, which is 58mm, everything else was eclipsed. So personally, I have it in my head that a wider flatter bed might be better. Or maybe the Robot is just that good!

@"wintoid"#p69653 I think highly of the Robot, and would happily own one. However threads on H-B from its' start, and especially around 2009, were very active in this topic. The general conclusion, although plenty of other factors come into play, is bed depth matters. There has been some more recent discussion of this there and on the Odyssey Argos Discord, where some members are adding 49mm billet baskets with good results. Until I add an Argos I have no direct evidence. However, this is still quite old news, except to Lance.

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69655 I'm happy to accept the views of people with more experience than myself, especially as espresso often seems to be such a finely judged pursuit. I feel that with the same grinders, the Robot channels so much less for me than anything that came before. It's also possible that my Robot beds were fairly deep anyway, as my dose definitely went up. I drink filter 99% of the time now anyway. My Duo's espresso burrs are barely seasoned. The Robot is an attractive ornament and talking point.

> @"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69655 However, this is still quite old news, except to Lance. Lance says it is an old news in the video right at the start. The thing he is doing that is new is testing with two different diameter baskets on the same machine, dosed the same and trying to account for headspace in the basket and then looking at extraction. He even mentions using a big VST basket (26g) to achieve a bigger bed depth on 58mm machines

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69652 @"wintoid"#p69656 What dose are you using with the Robot?

49mm better than 58mm?

Rob1

I think the baskets do make a difference. Sometimes measurable with a refractometer. A very small difference mind, certainly not worth $200 but I can get on board with 20. Look at all those distribution tools that do nothing but make the shot worse (but it looks better coming out of the basket) and they cost a couple of hundred a pop….or you can get Chinese one for £20 that does the same thing.

Most influencers don’t know anything they just regurgitate what others says. Lance is a great example of that. Reproduces content and contributes nothing new. Jumps on bandwagons for profit.

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 A very small difference mind, certainly not worth $200 but I can get on board with 20.

Cheaper than changing your grinder from flat to conical (or vice-versa) I suppose :-)

Cuprajake

100% after having stuff I told him regurgitated

JimmyP

MediumRoastSteam I would argue it’s fun to try new gear 🙂👍

MediumRoastSteam

JimmyP - I would not disagree, as long as the expectations are set! 👍

JimmyP

MediumRoastSteam Sometimes I wonder if people are a little hard on Lance. I have my reservations about him, but coming from 49mm baskets in the past I think he might have a point here.

MediumRoastSteam

JimmyP Sometimes I wonder if people are a little hard on Lance.

I’m not trying to be harsh here… But there’s a business model behind all of that. Just saying. AT the end of the day, you can make your own opinion. But you just need to have some experience of difference machines (over many years, not over a few days!!!!) and then watch his videos. I’ll let you be the judge of that.

Put this way… I am not a fan. Still… I watch his videos now and again…. With a pinch of salt… Or two. :-)

JimmyP

Rob1 Have you tried larger diameter baskets? I’m kinda confused now. You seem to be saying that Hedrick lacks credibility but on the other hand you like your smaller basket shots? 🤔

Rob1

JimmyP Yeah I have 58mm deep baskets and recently have been using 49mm. I’m saying Lance is regurgitating what other people have said and discovered. The deeper puck producing better shots idea is fairly old.

JimmyP

Rob1 The problem for me with deep baskets for 58mm is that one would be using very large doses and consuming mega caffeine. That’s why this subject interests me. Superior shots sub 20g. Can you see my point?

JimmyP

MediumRoastSteam What’s your thoughts on this subject? You’ve spent a lot of time slating Lance and yet not really offered us the benefit of your knowledge? 🤔

MediumRoastSteam

JimmyP - don’t have anything else to add. I’ve used different diameter baskets, but the machines were fundamentally different too. As for influencers in general, not only Lance, to make it clear - I’m not a fan.

Good luck.

dfk41

If memory serves me, the original Italian coffee machines were smaller than 58mm, then they realised more coffee could be sold if they switched to a larger basket…….so, what do you think most of them did. Then came all the bollox that followed

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 - I don’t think a wider basket makes them larger in terms of capacity, as the narrower baskets tend to be deeper - and, at the end of the day, holding a similar amount of coffee.

My understanding is that the only reason 58mm baskets are popular was because the “gold standard” of the E61 clone group, more so as that has largely been used in prosumer machines.

JimmyP

dfk41 So Lance has a point here? Better to use 49mm?

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam Italians by. tradition, drink 7gm singles and 14gm doubles……you try dosing those into a stock 58mm basket! If there was nothing commercial in the choice of 58mm for the E61 development by an Italian company, what was their motive then?

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 - you are right, I understand. But even the 58mm baskets have changed considerably with the 3rd wave coffee, light roasted, freshly roasted, bla bla bla. The walls are now straight (they were tapered if you remember), have a bigger perforated area and can be bought in all sorts of different sizes. If you have an old el cheapo 58mm basket lying around, like, from 15, 20 years ago, compare it to an IMS competition or VST. Take the LSM baskets which came with the machine you have. Can you fit 14g in them and not think “that’s not enough coffee in there….” I bet you can’t, not these days.

As for the E61… no idea. Faema invented, patented, became very popular. That’s all I know.

dfk41

JimmyP No idea I am afraid. I can think of better things to do than listen to that ex- Sage salesman

JimmyP

The interesting thing about most of the replies here is that most participants seem incapable of discussing the subject because they are so distracted by their dislike of Mr. Hedrick.
Fascinating stuff! 😅👍

MediumRoastSteam

JimmyP - I don’t get it. You are hardly contributing to the discussion yourself. People related their experiences, yet you want people to tell you that deeper baskets are better - so Lance has a point. Yes. They are wonderful. The concept has changed my life. I wish I could stack them to make them even deeper. Read the thread, it’s regurgitated info. People gave their opinions, even Rob1 who has a 58mm and a 49mm machine! I don’t get what point you are trying to make. So… better than that… Why don’t you give it a go and let us know? Buy the USD 200 basket, and tell us how it compares. We would be delighted to hear what you have to say.

Will say one more time… taste is subjective. One basket will taste difference from the other.

Good luck. For now, that’s it from me. Wish you all the best.

JimmyP

MediumRoastSteam Disagree I’m afraid. Most here are avoiding the question and just slating Hedrick.

Raja123

JimmyP

I have a decent de1 and a streitman ct2. I favor the ct2 more due to the presentation of the 49mm baskets at reasonable doses. not sure there’s much more to say that lance didn’t cover. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I’ll answer as best as I can.

I also have a lot of the luxury baskets for both machines, and have recently started roasting coffee at home. I love the hobby, and I enjoy watching videos and reading up on all topics. If you have similar views, just engage at the level you’re comfortable with.

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