I watched a YouTube video from Lance Hedrick yesterday where he suggested that 58mm espresso baskets might not be the best choice for the best espresso. Interested in whether anyone here has any thoughts on the matter? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p69629 A topic with multiple discussion threads on Reddit, H-B, etc -- the net seems to be no, diameter is not the factor; bed depth is. Use larger doses with 58mm to achieve greater depth. Old news except it seems, to Lance.

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69640 Ok, thank you. This stuff is still new to me and I’m not familiar with the stuff you mention!

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69640 So why aren’t people using big doses in big baskets with 58mm? Most people I encounter don’t do that? 🤔

@"JimmyP"#p69647 You are welcome. I believe many do based on the threads I read. No first-hand knowledge though as my La Pavoni is 49mm. If you Google likely you'll find the same threads. Have fun !

My history with espresso has been a succession of levers (Ponte Vecchio, Caravel, Cremina etc) with less than 58mm baskets. When I got the Robot, which is 58mm, everything else was eclipsed. So personally, I have it in my head that a wider flatter bed might be better. Or maybe the Robot is just that good!

@"wintoid"#p69653 I think highly of the Robot, and would happily own one. However threads on H-B from its' start, and especially around 2009, were very active in this topic. The general conclusion, although plenty of other factors come into play, is bed depth matters. There has been some more recent discussion of this there and on the Odyssey Argos Discord, where some members are adding 49mm billet baskets with good results. Until I add an Argos I have no direct evidence. However, this is still quite old news, except to Lance.

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69655 I'm happy to accept the views of people with more experience than myself, especially as espresso often seems to be such a finely judged pursuit. I feel that with the same grinders, the Robot channels so much less for me than anything that came before. It's also possible that my Robot beds were fairly deep anyway, as my dose definitely went up. I drink filter 99% of the time now anyway. My Duo's espresso burrs are barely seasoned. The Robot is an attractive ornament and talking point.

> @"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69655 However, this is still quite old news, except to Lance. Lance says it is an old news in the video right at the start. The thing he is doing that is new is testing with two different diameter baskets on the same machine, dosed the same and trying to account for headspace in the basket and then looking at extraction. He even mentions using a big VST basket (26g) to achieve a bigger bed depth on 58mm machines

@"BrendaninBrooklyn"#p69652 @"wintoid"#p69656 What dose are you using with the Robot?

49mm better than 58mm?

dfk41

JimmyP No idea I am afraid. I can think of better things to do than listen to that ex- Sage salesman

Adrianmsmith

dfk41 I can think of better things to do than listen to that ex- Sage salesman

Back in those days he did sound like he understood what he was saying, and what he said sounded believable.

As oer jake, now he comes out with outlandish comments you just feel he does not understand or maybe believe even.

Hope he pays that Dr whatsit guy he keeps quoting as when hes quoting him sometimes he has something interesting to say and you can believe it .

His ego has grown much quicker than his herd . Doesn’t seem to matter how true or to the point what he is saying is . The scientific engineering moments if his EK 43 videos were basically a comedy or how not to do!

Then lets not get started on the Vordstik video!

Raja123

JimmyP

I have a decent de1 and a streitman ct2. I favor the ct2 more due to the presentation of the 49mm baskets at reasonable doses. not sure there’s much more to say that lance didn’t cover. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I’ll answer as best as I can.

I also have a lot of the luxury baskets for both machines, and have recently started roasting coffee at home. I love the hobby, and I enjoy watching videos and reading up on all topics. If you have similar views, just engage at the level you’re comfortable with.

Adrianmsmith

To get back on track

I have let it known in the past couple of years how ive done a full 360 loving the 58mm synchronika to loving the evo leva. Really, v1 or v2 54.4mm.

And ive never had a technical reason why .

Ive even said i dont understand how using a different method to produce pressure has so much influence.

Then theres the basket and dose size something i and many on here disagree on.

I prefer 21.5g in the 32 basket to anything from the 26 basket .

I prefer the acs to the ims competition basket, maybe just because my tamper fits it better. Who knows.

Anyway all of my findings were prior to lances video .

But it seems without knowing or thinking about it…… for once he has a point. Not sure whose point it originally was but it seems to

fit my taste!!

Rob1

JimmyP

It’s going to be difficult to say definitively a deep puck is better than a shallow one. You have to consider the quality of the grinder - a shallow puck will require a finer grind - flow rate, ratio, pre-infusion, light or dark roast/density of the coffee, baskets holes clogging, silt in the cup, puck erosion, puck prep and likelihood of channelling.

IMS produced 58mm baskets a few years ago designed for single shots. They are bowl-shaped and only have holes in the middle - they are supposed to produce single shots that aren’t lacking in body. The shots I got from them were certainly different to the 18g VST - more clarity, more acidity, slightly less body. They weren’t the same as a double shot from a larger basket only smaller, which is what was really advertised, but they came close. The pucks were very thin compared to the VST.

I’ve been using the 49mm IMS fine mesh basket for the past few days. It just about fits a 14g dose and puck screen. It’s a tight fit and I think 13g or 12g might be better with the screen. The shots are very clear and have acidity and body similar to the IMS “the single” baskets which took a 12g dose.

Raja123

Better might be the wrong word, Rob. Some people may prefer the flavor profile of deeper pucks through certain baskets. In my own testing across various baskets and shot styles on the 58 and 49mm platforms, I’ve found I generally prefer the latter, due to the gentler acidity profile and increased body. There are some exceptions to the rule (Sworks regular 49mm vs decent or IMS on 58mm), but they are rather specific.

The general rule of the dosage and puck depth being favorable for more body and a rounder acidity presentation does seem to hold up for me across the standard basket types.

I currently have the following in my possession:

49mm: 14g Strietman, 14g Strietman mesh, 16g Sworks regular flow, 18g Strietman, 20g IMS precision, 20g Sworks reduced flow.

58mm: Decent 7g, Decent 10g, 14g Decent extremely waisted, 14g Decent very waisted, 18g Decent, 18g VST, 18g Sworks standard flow, 18g Sworks high flow, Sworks waisted (on order), 18g Weber Unifilter, 20g Decent, 24g Decent.

JammyDodger

Raja123 14g Decent extremely waisted, 14g Decent very waisted

Not wishing to derail the thread, but I would love to hear your thoughts on how these two baskets compare to the stock Decent basket and when you would use one over the other. Thank you!

JHCCoffee

Ordered a couple of EPHQ21 baskets, to compare to my EPHQ14’s, both 58mm for my Decent. A low cost test, other than the cost of beans and my time.

So the only difference will be dose size (will maintain the same brew ratio) and bed depth. Will ensure that headspace remains the same in both baskets. This should provide personal experience on the impacts of bed depth (only) on taste.

Tjyven

JHCCoffee Heard good things about those baskets. Very cheap but shipping from USA is very expensive, do you know if they are sold somewhere in EU?

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam . Some guy goes and says: “yo, blind shaker is the best thing since sliced bread” and all of a sudden everyone buys blindshakers - just to find it adds little or just adds plain nothing.

Or makes it worse by introducing inconsistency as it is very difficult to blind shake and get exactly the same compression every time.

Adrianmsmith

JHCCoffee

Not understanding how the blind shaker changes how I tamp?

And id had blind shaker long before that video as it comes with the HG-1 prime. Not at all to do with Lance!

I particularly use it after grinding 2 bean types separately wanting to blend

Raja123

JammyDodger with a sufficient dose, they are more blendy than the decent or vst baskets. I use them for slayer shots with light or medium roasts, when the acidity of a coffee is too much. I also sometimes use the very waisted basket for a 9-bar 1:1 to 1:2 pull with a dark roast. Note that I prefer the very waisted basket out of the two, because it holds enough coffee (17g+) to build pressure. If you go below 16g or so with some coffees in these baskets, you’ll get a turbo shot and it’s difficult to grind fine enough without the shot channeling.

JammyDodger

Thanks @Raja123 thats really helpful!

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