Hi all, I've been using a Fracino Cherub HX machine since late last year, bought it used, serviced it, stripped it down to replace a leaking heating element, descaled fully with the boiler out while I was at it and a few other bits and pieces, bottom line is that it's running faultlessly. This is my first proper machine and it is now paired with a Niche Duo that I bought from KyleT, it is a great combination. I've gotten to a point where I am happy with my espresso making routine using this combo and the results are pretty good from my perspective. I drink my coffee as a short black usually or a Cortado if I fancy milk, both short drinks which are half espresso, half milk or hot water. Wife drinks a long black and occasional flat white. I am more than happy with the steam power of the cherub, it's incredibly powerful if anything. I've tended to favour medium dark to dark beans for espresso, though do enjoy slightly lighter roasted coffees such as those from Django as a v60. So my question, what benefits would I see if I upgraded from my HX to a more advanced dual boiler machine, such as a Lelit Bianca, Profitec 600/700, ECM etc? Would there be a big improvement to espresso taste? Or is it more user experience based improvements? I'm wondering how much difference temperature of extraction, flow profiling etc has on final taste to a normal person like myself with regular taste buds. Cheers!

If you’re able to try a flow profiling machine before buying I’d recommend it. Not sure if you’re anywhere near Bella Barista but they sell the brands you’re talking about and have demo units. Profiling for me didn’t really impact the coffee enough to warrant keeping my Bianca and after the novelty of it wore off, I literally just left it in the full open position. Since discovering how huge an impact intra-shot temperature stability can have on the taste of espresso, I have a hunch (and it’s just a hunch before the data nerds come at me…) that flow control can only have limited impact on the output of an E61 group which isn’t exactly known for its cutting edge temperature stability. And again, before its spreadsheets at dawn, I’m basing the findings on my own experiences. Controversially I’m not sure I’d recommend an E61 at all having owned one. Outside of the classic aesthetic, I can’t see the benefits when factoring the trade-offs in temp stability and require maintenance. I’d say machines like the Decent, or GS3 MP are better options for anyone who really want to make the best use of profiling but for dark roasts it’s not really worth it. Best to try some machines in person though if possible.

I think the dual boiler experience would be: * easier in terms of workflow * you only have to have one boiler on when your not steaming..making for less energy consumption and maintenance. * Much improved temperature stability (which does affect taste). * The ability to raise a lower brew temp to suit particular beans/roast levels (which again impacts taste).

Worth upgrading from a HX machine?

DavecUK

I think the dual boiler experience would be:

easier in terms of workflow
you only have to have one boiler on when your not steaming..making for less energy consumption and maintenance.
Much improved temperature stability (which does affect taste).
The ability to raise a lower brew temp to suit particular beans/roast levels (which again impacts taste).

Cuprajake

temp stability,

thats the main thing, for me the flow control wasn’t as useful as i thought it would be, the biancas built in pump features were better and more repeatable.

will it make a £2000 difference probably not.

the e61 even on the bianca can swing a bit, and id class the bianca as the best e61

DavecUK

Tal I’ve been using a Fracino Cherub HX machine since late last year, bought it used, serviced it, stripped it down to replace a leaking heating element, descaled fully with the boiler out while I was at it and a few other bits and pieces, bottom line is that it’s running faultlessly.

Which of course is the overture (subconsciously or not) that your mind has moved on to “better” things.. The heart often rules the head and it’s not really a numbers game any more…it tends to go like this with most people, and perhaps similar with you.

Is it an improvement (check), even if it’s a small one.
Do I like how it looks
I need to spend money to reward my developing skills and abilities
I want a machine I can grow with
I know what I have isn’t endgame for me
I’m curious and know the experience will be more enjoyable

This sort of stuff….I guess it catches us all. Ultimately the higher end the machine, the easier and more pleasurable it is to use.

Tal

I appreciate all of your feedback.

Sounds to me, given I am happy with my espresso, it would likely be small improvements to my med/dark roast coffee quality but perhaps bigger improvements to the user experience. Which makes sense.

I had assumed e61 groups were preferred due to their thermal mass and subsequent thermal stability. But from what you guys have said, perhaps that is not the case and actually thermoblock setups such as the decent are actually the way forward for increased control.

I do have a flush routine with my cherub to try and keep things as consistent as possible. To start with I’ll pull a shots worth for water through the group. Then I’ll prep my shot. Then once my portafilter is locked in I open the steam valve to drop the pressure in the boiler, enough so the thermostat kicks in (doesn’t take much, quick blip). Once the pressure in the boiler peaks and the heater switches off, I start my shot.

I guess if I ever went down the light roast route, i.e my taste preference evolves, then maybe I would benefit more so from an upgrade with improved temperature stability etc.

I think I may just keep my eye out for a good quality used machine, see what comes up over the next few months and jump if a good opportunity arises.

HarveyMushman

Sounds like a sensible plan!

Tal I had assumed e61 groups were preferred due to their thermal mass and subsequent thermal stability.

They were in 1961 😅. I think a lot of people also assume the same though simply because of how many machines have that group.

I think the prevalence is down to two reasons; 1. Their nostalgic aesthetic and 2. You can’t really get an alternative under £2k that looks good and every alternative is basically just a silver box.

DavecUK

HarveyMushman I think the prevalence is down to two reasons; 1. Their nostalgic aesthetic and 2. You can’t really get an alternative under £2k that looks good and every alternative is basically just a silver box.

Don’t forget their simplicity, ease of maintenance and reliability. Plus when they were invented, machines were HX units. With modern dual boiler systems they not only work exceptionally well, but have the potential to be cartridge heated and PID controlled. As in one of the prototype ECM machines I saw and also the ACS Prototype Falcon I that I used at the 2023 Host Milanh Show.

These things can take a 1961 tech and bring it right up to date, just like the 1957 lever tech on the ACS Evo 2 et al.

Dan

This is super interesting.

What are views on the progress towards on demand heated water in the way the ascaso does it? The one thing that stops me from purchasing a new machine is the heat up time of the better quality machines. I don’t have a regular enough morning routine to have an automated switch.

I suppose the risk is temperature stability, but they seem to be getting closer to addressing that issue?

HarveyMushman

Dan

This is why the Linea Mini/Micra are so good as the brew boiler is relatively tiny and only has a small amount of water to heat at a time. As a result the heat up time is 8-12 minutes. The problem is they’re still prohibitively expensive and some don’t like how they look.

The Decent also has great tech but again, pricey.

I’m not familiar with the machine you mentioned but I’d guess we’ll definitely see more accessible machines with better water heating tech.

Whilst home espresso isn’t new, this recent-ish (post lockdown) boom is quite new, and before that it was mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso where an E61 is absolutely fine.

All it would take is one manufacturer to basically recreate the LM style group and package it up in a sub £1000 package that looks aesthetically pleasing and I think it could be popular.

Rob1

HarveyMushman Whilst home espresso isn’t new, this recent-ish (post lockdown) boom is quite new, and before that it was mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso where an E61 is absolutely fine.

errr completely off-topic but this caught my eye…..no it wasn’t. At all. (re mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso). Not unless lockdown was around 2005.

Cuprajake

its just a shame lm are very top end of mosts pricing :(

dfk41

HarveyMushman Having owned a LM GS3 auto, I would say they are a complete waste of money. The current paddle version is around 7k, and for what? To guess at what is happening by moving a paddle. Without doubt LM are a flagship company and ownership unrivalled, but are they really that good when compared to the open market?

I would say try and buy a decent used HX machine, and if after a year of use you consider it to not scratching the itch, then sell it and move on up (or is that down) the coffee ladder

HarveyMushman

dfk41 Having owned a LM GS3 auto, I would say they are a complete waste of money. The current paddle version is around 7k, and for what? To guess at what is happening by moving a paddle.

I wouldn’t disagree but the Lineas are different machines, newer and much cheaper. Manual profiling is a bit of a guessing game regardless of machine.

I agree Marzocco’s are overpriced but again, having owned various E61 machines the group type in the Linea machines have vastly better temperature stability which does affect taste.

So hopefully at some point we’ll see the same group types pop up in more affordable machines. As I understand it it’s not particularly high-tech not super expensive to produce.

Cuprajake

its budget,

if i had unlimited income id buy a kees van west lever but there about 10k or something ridiculous,

imo once tou get past about 1500 on a machine, blind cupping you would always tell the difference, the more expensive gear just makes life easier and thus more repeatable,

dfk41

HarveyMushman Question….how do you think GS3 owners felt when LM brought out their cheaper and then even cheaper models? I think when you reduce prices, you quickly reach a stage where you are buying a badge, not what is behind it. Owning a GS3 was nice, but I have to be honest and say it was nothing special in terms of coffee. It was nice though to see envious glances when folks came round

HarveyMushman

I wasn’t too fussed when the Micra came out and actually thought it was good as it made a great machine more accessible, albeit still very expensive comparatively.

I agree on the GS3 though. It’s just very dated now, at the time it was the only commercial machine suitable for the home or coffee shop, and difficult to justify even when it first came out. I can’t imagine they sell many today at all. I certainly wouldn’t buy one even if I was looking to spend nearly 10 grand on a machine.

Cuprajake

gs3 is an outdated design now, more suited to a cafe than home anyways, the days of massive commercial grinders like a major being used are gone,

back then stuff wasnt as affordable as now, i say affordable with a pinch of salt as you stll need to spend £500 on a grinder and £1500 on a machine lol

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 - very true. I’ve been in this since approx. 2012. “Traditional Italian” was definitely not what was in my cup!

I even remember playing with 6 bar shots, longer and shorter ratios. Single origin coffee, roasted medium to medium light. I was never a big fan of the dark stuff. I had VST baskets back then too.

HarveyMushman

Yeah I don’t know why I wrote post-lockdown, I’ve been drinking contemporary roasts since 05 also when I got my first Gaggia.

Also lived in London when the third wave landed so clearly I was talking nonsense.

MediumRoastSteam

HarveyMushman 😊 - I was going to say… I thought you had your gear wwaaaaayyyyyyyyyy before lockdown. 👍

HarveyMushman

I think I was trying to say something about how lockdown (and the subsequent YouTubers etc) brought the intricacies of the third wave to a wider audience. People who hadn’t ever been in a third wave coffee shop and whose benchmark was Starbucks or similar.

Where before lockdown the average Joe’s route into espresso might have been via Lavazza or Illy and the lockdown boom found those same people with more time on their hands discovering home espresso via YouTube and the internet.

Either way I didn’t answer my own questions around how the E61 remains the most prevalent group type by far so it was a pointless musing!