Worth upgrading from a HX machine?

HarveyMushman

Sounds like a sensible plan!

Tal I had assumed e61 groups were preferred due to their thermal mass and subsequent thermal stability.

They were in 1961 😅. I think a lot of people also assume the same though simply because of how many machines have that group.

I think the prevalence is down to two reasons; 1. Their nostalgic aesthetic and 2. You can’t really get an alternative under £2k that looks good and every alternative is basically just a silver box.

DavecUK

HarveyMushman I think the prevalence is down to two reasons; 1. Their nostalgic aesthetic and 2. You can’t really get an alternative under £2k that looks good and every alternative is basically just a silver box.

Don’t forget their simplicity, ease of maintenance and reliability. Plus when they were invented, machines were HX units. With modern dual boiler systems they not only work exceptionally well, but have the potential to be cartridge heated and PID controlled. As in one of the prototype ECM machines I saw and also the ACS Prototype Falcon I that I used at the 2023 Host Milanh Show.

These things can take a 1961 tech and bring it right up to date, just like the 1957 lever tech on the ACS Evo 2 et al.

Dan

This is super interesting.

What are views on the progress towards on demand heated water in the way the ascaso does it? The one thing that stops me from purchasing a new machine is the heat up time of the better quality machines. I don’t have a regular enough morning routine to have an automated switch.

I suppose the risk is temperature stability, but they seem to be getting closer to addressing that issue?

HarveyMushman

Dan

This is why the Linea Mini/Micra are so good as the brew boiler is relatively tiny and only has a small amount of water to heat at a time. As a result the heat up time is 8-12 minutes. The problem is they’re still prohibitively expensive and some don’t like how they look.

The Decent also has great tech but again, pricey.

I’m not familiar with the machine you mentioned but I’d guess we’ll definitely see more accessible machines with better water heating tech.

Whilst home espresso isn’t new, this recent-ish (post lockdown) boom is quite new, and before that it was mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso where an E61 is absolutely fine.

All it would take is one manufacturer to basically recreate the LM style group and package it up in a sub £1000 package that looks aesthetically pleasing and I think it could be popular.

Rob1

HarveyMushman Whilst home espresso isn’t new, this recent-ish (post lockdown) boom is quite new, and before that it was mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso where an E61 is absolutely fine.

errr completely off-topic but this caught my eye…..no it wasn’t. At all. (re mainly folks into traditional Italian espresso). Not unless lockdown was around 2005.

Cuprajake

its just a shame lm are very top end of mosts pricing :(

dfk41

HarveyMushman Having owned a LM GS3 auto, I would say they are a complete waste of money. The current paddle version is around 7k, and for what? To guess at what is happening by moving a paddle. Without doubt LM are a flagship company and ownership unrivalled, but are they really that good when compared to the open market?

I would say try and buy a decent used HX machine, and if after a year of use you consider it to not scratching the itch, then sell it and move on up (or is that down) the coffee ladder

HarveyMushman

dfk41 Having owned a LM GS3 auto, I would say they are a complete waste of money. The current paddle version is around 7k, and for what? To guess at what is happening by moving a paddle.

I wouldn’t disagree but the Lineas are different machines, newer and much cheaper. Manual profiling is a bit of a guessing game regardless of machine.

I agree Marzocco’s are overpriced but again, having owned various E61 machines the group type in the Linea machines have vastly better temperature stability which does affect taste.

So hopefully at some point we’ll see the same group types pop up in more affordable machines. As I understand it it’s not particularly high-tech not super expensive to produce.

Cuprajake

its budget,

if i had unlimited income id buy a kees van west lever but there about 10k or something ridiculous,

imo once tou get past about 1500 on a machine, blind cupping you would always tell the difference, the more expensive gear just makes life easier and thus more repeatable,

dfk41

HarveyMushman Question….how do you think GS3 owners felt when LM brought out their cheaper and then even cheaper models? I think when you reduce prices, you quickly reach a stage where you are buying a badge, not what is behind it. Owning a GS3 was nice, but I have to be honest and say it was nothing special in terms of coffee. It was nice though to see envious glances when folks came round

HarveyMushman

I wasn’t too fussed when the Micra came out and actually thought it was good as it made a great machine more accessible, albeit still very expensive comparatively.

I agree on the GS3 though. It’s just very dated now, at the time it was the only commercial machine suitable for the home or coffee shop, and difficult to justify even when it first came out. I can’t imagine they sell many today at all. I certainly wouldn’t buy one even if I was looking to spend nearly 10 grand on a machine.

Cuprajake

gs3 is an outdated design now, more suited to a cafe than home anyways, the days of massive commercial grinders like a major being used are gone,

back then stuff wasnt as affordable as now, i say affordable with a pinch of salt as you stll need to spend £500 on a grinder and £1500 on a machine lol

MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 - very true. I’ve been in this since approx. 2012. “Traditional Italian” was definitely not what was in my cup!

I even remember playing with 6 bar shots, longer and shorter ratios. Single origin coffee, roasted medium to medium light. I was never a big fan of the dark stuff. I had VST baskets back then too.

HarveyMushman

Yeah I don’t know why I wrote post-lockdown, I’ve been drinking contemporary roasts since 05 also when I got my first Gaggia.

Also lived in London when the third wave landed so clearly I was talking nonsense.

MediumRoastSteam

HarveyMushman 😊 - I was going to say… I thought you had your gear wwaaaaayyyyyyyyyy before lockdown. 👍

HarveyMushman

I think I was trying to say something about how lockdown (and the subsequent YouTubers etc) brought the intricacies of the third wave to a wider audience. People who hadn’t ever been in a third wave coffee shop and whose benchmark was Starbucks or similar.

Where before lockdown the average Joe’s route into espresso might have been via Lavazza or Illy and the lockdown boom found those same people with more time on their hands discovering home espresso via YouTube and the internet.

Either way I didn’t answer my own questions around how the E61 remains the most prevalent group type by far so it was a pointless musing!

Cuprajake

covid did bring alot of people to home coffee, me included, kinda wish it didnt be richer lol

HarveyMushman

Cuprajake

😂 wouldn’t we all.

I think ultimately it’s been great, definitely feels like we’ve seen far more development in gear in the past few years than the years before.

DavecUK

HarveyMushman I think ultimately it’s been great, definitely feels like we’ve seen far more development in gear in the past few years than the years before.

I’d agree, although “core” development has slowed down a lot with many companies and a lot of the gadgety stuff and marketing things/ideas/products have been rapidly increasing.

Cuprajake

unless you buy a la marzocco

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HarveyMushman

@Cuprajake

🤣🤣🤣