Omni roasts

JimmyP

Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster? 🤔

MWJB

JimmyP

No & yes.

DavecUK

JimmyP Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster?

They serve the roaster, allowing them a broader customer base.

JimmyP

MWJB I don’t see many roasters doing other than omni where I live. What’s it like for you?

MWJB

JimmyP Off the top of my head, Square Mile (currently drinking their Kenya Kainamui), Blossom, Workshop, Roundhill do ‘filter’ roasts, though filter roasts seem to have largely got darker in recent years. Kiss the Hippo also do their ‘Bright & Vibrant’ range…which sometimes lack brightness/vibrancy.

Omni roasting, to my perception, is roasting the coffee darker than ideal for filter, so folks can get a reasonable result at shorter espresso ratios. That said, I’m quite happy with filter/light roasts at longer ratios as espresso, I don’t need short, gloopy shots if it’s at the expense of a roastier bean.

Cuprajake

Is that because it’s not really a thing?

JimmyP

Cuprajake I’m not sure what you mean? Surely different beans can be roasted to have different characteristics for different brew methods? 🤔

JimmyP

MWJB I think I would argue it’s more complex than that. For instance you might encounter light roasts designed for espresso.

Adrianmsmith

Other than changing how dark they roast what else changes.

Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine…..

Other than broad, black, baked etc!

MWJB

Adrianmsmith Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine…..

Any nominally roasted bean can go into an espresso machine, light/med/dark, depending on your preference.

Light filter roasts are more likely to have very high perceived acidity at typical espresso ratios and concentrations (1:2, 1:3 etc.). But pull them longer & weaker and they can be tamed, say 1:4 to 1:6? They won’t really stand up to milk & a lot of folk don’t feel like it’s ‘real’ espresso at that kind of concentration & lack of mouthfeel.

Darker roasts stand up better to short ratios and this helps lift the perceived acidity, which would be flat/generic if say brewed as drip.

Note when I talk about increased perceived acidity, I’m talking about something relevant to espresso at normal extraction levels, I’m not attributing it to low extractions.

JimmyP

Adrianmsmith My understanding is that every bean behaves differently, so for instance you may find a bean that lends itself to a light roast for espresso.

Cuprajake

thats the roasters interpretation, go under and its disgusting, like wise you can scorch and it still be under done.

best of roasting the bean to its full potential and brew it how you want, most the beans i get are filter roast, through an espresso machine

JimmyP

MWJB And yet there are roasters that are roasting light for espresso? I think that’s a different thing.

Systemic

What does an ‘omni’ roast actually mean? Whilst lighter roasts excel with pour over, they can be a challenge when brewing espresso. So does that mean omni roasting takes the roast profile past the optimum for a lighter roast in order to tame the acidic notes when using same beans for espresso?

Personally, I am not convinced. I prefer to buy beans that are optimally roasted for pour over which means a lighter roast. If I want zero acidity in the cup espresso-wise, I’d opt for a roast profile optimised for that. That doesn’t mean you can’t brew espresso with lighter roasts but you have to make compromises chief of which is body. In order to tame acidity when pulling shots from lighter roasts, you invariably need to pull longer - 1:2.5 or higher. That way, the acidic notes are muted but that doesn’t mean they go away entirely but you won’t have a lot of mouth feel/body in the cup. If your machine allows you to alter espresso brew temp, you can set the temp higher than would normally be used for darker roasts. Higher temps help pull more solubles from the beans. In short, you can good shots from lighter roasts and in that I include Kenyan beans which are highly acidic.

Another elephant in the corner is development which is much more of an issue when roasting light. Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is. Always a good idea when looking at lighter roasts is to crack open a bean or two and see how even the colouring is inside.

MWJB

Systemic Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is.

Under developed roasted beans aren’t going to great for filter though either, usually lacking in sweetness/acidity and with savoury/umami notes.

JimmyP

Systemic Some good points there, but what I’m trying to say is that it’s not just about roast level. So for instance you may find a bean that’s been deliberately roasted light for straight espresso. And yet it might not perform so well for filter.

StellarGreg

In our supposedly “Scientific Age” I find it a crying shame that we are left at the mercy of MARKETING AGENTS to describe the coffee that they want to sell us.

They give us all sorts of descriptions of coffee roasting level, or quite often these days, they don’t even refer to the roasting level AT ALL!

For me, all coffee sales should be FORCED to display the “Agtron” number. Such a measurement is possible, and indeed Roasters will all have such eqipment to measure it! So why don’t they simply GIVE US THIS INFO!

The answer is of course “They don’t want us to know!”

Make it a law
!

P.S. I’ve “wasted” so many coffee beans, from trying out new coffee beans only to have to throw them straight in the bin!
That’s so bad for the environment…

MediumRoastSteam

StellarGreg The answer is of course “They don’t want us to know!”

Foundry Coffee Roasters do have that info on their website.

https://foundrycoffeeroasters.com/blogs/news/dark-medium-and-light-roasts

Not sure which scale that is though.

Cuprajake

Greg are you in the industry

Your posts would indicate it

StellarGreg

Hi Cuprajake.
No! - Not at all!

If you want to know I’m a retired TEACHER (of religion) with interests in History, Science, Astronomy, Astrology, Tarot, Music,, Guitars - and of course COFFEE! I’ve even made a number of Electric Guitars (to my own design and from scratch, no kits those!) I’m now writing a number of things, largely on history and religion, where I’m rather critical of the “Establishment”!!!

From my background in Physics, Science and my making of Electric Guiatars, come my technical and engineering skills and knowledge…

I’m generally a quite “critical customer”, and within days or weeks of owning a “New Toy”, I might know more about the DEFECTS of a product than the manufacturers….?

Even my comments here are rather critical of the current Coffee “Establishment”, (Manufacturers AND Specialty Coffee Geeks) so I’m rather surprised at your question!.

Anyway back to the thread here:- PLEASE Roasters, give us the Agtron Roast Number not a number out of Five, or out of Ten, or descriptions like “City”, or “Full City” or “Dark” “Medium” or “Light” - which could mean almost anything…

InfamousTuba

StellarGreg PLEASE Roasters, give us the Agtron Roast Number not a number out of Five, or out of Ten, or descriptions like “City”, or “Full City” or “Dark” “Medium” or “Light” - which could mean almost anything…

I completely agree that there should be a better system to communicate roast level in coffee to customers

The problem with this is that roasters won’t have calibrated agtron roast numbers. Roasters all use different colours meters (roast vision, tonino, lighttells etc.) these all use different scales not just agtron or different grind sizes meaning the values are not comparable.

To get comparable readings between roasters you would need the same colour meter (preferably the £10k Agtron M-Basic-II) and the same grind size. Most roasters don’t want to spend the money on that piece of equipment. I think onyx used to give agtron readings but they seem to have disappeared recently

Cuprajake

Suppose

But then you roast the beans to their strength

Low grown Vs high altitude, beans size, processing, beans type

Going too light on any bean you will just get a nasty coffee that grassy

JimmyP

Cuprajake That’s what I’m saying. A good roaster will roast a bean to it’s strengths 👍 (brew method)

MWJB

JimmyP Buy their light filter roast & their light espresso roasts…then brew them as filter.