Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster? 🤔

@"MWJB"#p71518 I don’t see many roasters doing other than omni where I live. What’s it like for you?

Is that because it's not really a thing?

@"JimmyP"#p71519 Off the top of my head, Square Mile (currently drinking their Kenya Kainamui), Blossom, Workshop, Roundhill do 'filter' roasts, though filter roasts seem to have largely got darker in recent years. Kiss the Hippo also do their 'Bright & Vibrant' range…which sometimes lack brightness/vibrancy. Omni roasting, to my perception, is roasting the coffee darker than ideal for filter, so folks can get a reasonable result at shorter espresso ratios. That said, I'm quite happy with filter/light roasts at longer ratios as espresso, I don't need short, gloopy shots if it's at the expense of a roastier bean.

Other than changing how dark they roast what else changes. Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine….. Other than broad, black, baked etc!

thats the roasters interpretation, go under and its disgusting, like wise you can scorch and it still be under done. best of roasting the bean to its full potential and brew it how you want, most the beans i get are filter roast, through an espresso machine

> @"JimmyP"#p71517 Can omni roasts really serve their intended purpose? Or do they just serve the roaster? They serve the roaster, allowing them a broader customer base.

> @"Adrianmsmith"#p71526 Which beans should never be used in an espresso machine….. Any nominally roasted bean can go into an espresso machine, light/med/dark, depending on your preference. Light filter roasts are more likely to have very high perceived acidity at typical espresso ratios and concentrations (1:2, 1:3 etc.). But pull them longer & weaker and they can be tamed, say 1:4 to 1:6? They won't really stand up to milk & a lot of folk don't feel like it's 'real' espresso at that kind of concentration & lack of mouthfeel. Darker roasts stand up better to short ratios and this helps lift the perceived acidity, which would be flat/generic if say brewed as drip. Note when I talk about increased perceived acidity, I'm talking about something relevant to espresso at normal extraction levels, I'm not attributing it to low extractions.

What does an 'omni' roast actually mean? Whilst lighter roasts excel with pour over, they can be a challenge when brewing espresso. So does that mean omni roasting takes the roast profile past the optimum for a lighter roast in order to tame the acidic notes when using same beans for espresso? Personally, I am not convinced. I prefer to buy beans that are optimally roasted for pour over which means a lighter roast. If I want zero acidity in the cup espresso-wise, I'd opt for a roast profile optimised for that. That doesn't mean you can't brew espresso with lighter roasts but you have to make compromises chief of which is body. In order to tame acidity when pulling shots from lighter roasts, you invariably need to pull longer - 1:2.5 or higher. That way, the acidic notes are muted but that doesn't mean they go away entirely but you won't have a lot of mouth feel/body in the cup. If your machine allows you to alter espresso brew temp, you can set the temp higher than would normally be used for darker roasts. Higher temps help pull more solubles from the beans. In short, you can good shots from lighter roasts and in that I include Kenyan beans which are highly acidic. Another elephant in the corner is development which is much more of an issue when roasting light. Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is. Always a good idea when looking at lighter roasts is to crack open a bean or two and see how even the colouring is inside.

> @"Systemic"#p71535 Under development means poor roasting and under developed beans are not going to provide good espresso no matter how good your technique is. Under developed roasted beans aren't going to great for filter though either, usually lacking in sweetness/acidity and with savoury/umami notes.

Omni roasts

Cuprajake

JimmyP

Tim wendelbow has always been consistent for me,

Like with Smith Street and foundry, crank house, craft house, blackcat

For my mrs Brazil beans northstar and Horsham coffee, although not so much northstar now as they changed the Brazilian and she doesn’t like it as much.

I’ve been using dog and hat for a long time who gives international subscription, but these can be risky and hit and miss and I’ve probably thrown more beans than liked

JimmyP

Cuprajake Ok. Thanks for the suggestions.

StellarGreg

Adrianmsmith

Hi, yes, the M47 really isn’t that bad for popcorning. It’s tall enough for not much to come out.

But - as I said earlier, if you grind at 45 degrees - which slows down the beans entry to the burrs - and gives better consistency according to James Hoffman - and makes grinding easier - more do pop out, so you do need one for that!

Regards Greg

P.S. The plastic HSN used for this Capsule bottle is really damn tough!

The main cut, of the base of the bottle, I used the blade removed from a small knife, and clamped to a block of wood, so as to be the correct height. The first cut it’s best to “go with the blade” to mark the cut, then once that first cut is done, it works faster to rotate in reverse and the back of the blade removes material faster…
DON’T have the blade overhanging much from the block, and clamp it tight!

I did initially try a small hacksaw, but it didn’t “cut it”, and was not accurate.

The rest was done with various drills and files - and took quite some time! That tough nut plaastic!

Regards Greg

Cuprajake

Really depends what you drink, and roast preferences

Don’t have to spend big time get nice coffee

Blackcat coffee tends to have a nice bean or two, and they have the code forum15 which get discount 😁

MWJB

StellarGreg If those of us who prefer Dark Roasts can’t speak out, then “Omni-Roasts” are gonna get forced on us by the industry - because they’re more profitable…

No view, nor coffee is forced on anyone. You elect to purchase omni, light, dark, filter, whatever. If the coffee you receive is way off the description on the website, raise it with the roaster and if you are not happy with the response/further bags, choose not to spend more money with them.

StellarGreg

MWJB
Hi MWJB.
You know, OmniRoasts ARE actually being forced upon us already.

Like many, I have to drink some of my coffee “De-Caff”. How many roasteries provide more than ONE miserable De-Caff.

I say “miserable”, because it’s a “One-Size-Fits-All”, “No-Size-is-Perfect-for-Anybody” blend. ALWAYS a blend. Trying to get a De-Caff as a “Single Origin”? Not worth even trying!

Actually I’ve so far found only two roasteries that do provide more than one De-Caff. Both were Italian.
Since they are making them mostly for those who like darker roasts, they provide a couple that vary from “Medium” to “MAXIMUM!”.

All the Specialty Roast Houses that I’ve viewed, only provide ONE single “Light-to-Medium” De-Caff.

So, without USING the word “Omni-Roast”, these mixes are already being forced upon us! Beware!

Also note that one Roast Houses “OmniRoast” is not the same as anothers…

Regards Greg

StellarGreg

Adrianmsmith

Hi Adrian.
You asked what I thought of the Neouza Sleeve - once I got it.
It came yesterday, and I’m already a big fan!
It makes grinding with the Kinu much easier, and totally dispenses with needing to use the thumb rest!
I found that in the grinds I have done since, that there are no “halts” in the grinding, due to a bean offering too much resistance. It’s that much easier!
It was very hard to get on!!! It took repeatedly diggin in with a finger and pulling it on a bit, then rotating a bit, and again, and again….
Even so I don’t think that the edges are perfectly straight - and I put it on with “Neouza” upside down. I’m NOT changing that now!
I share two pics. One of the Kinu with the sleeve.

The other of my “Hand Grinder Home”. Having had the accident with the M47, and the zero point STILL not as it was before, I take preventing my grinders from falling seriously!
Note the new use for the Joe Frex Puck dump! I have made for myself a floor standing one…
Regards Greg

Adrianmsmith

StellarGreg You asked what I thought of the Neouza Sleeve - once I got it.
It came yesterday, and I’m already a big fan

Thanks . will look it up and give it a try .

Adrianmsmith

StellarGreg my wife has to drink decaf as well.

Apparently (!) this is good…..

https://coffeelink.com/shop/coffee/bags/swiss-water-processed-decaf-premium-espresso/?_gl=1\*5p2xhv\*_up\*MQ..&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu-63BhC9ARIsAMMTLXTTA160EFaYxCgHJrJbyhUCtFj9vmr1qL0GIaj3NpflOtavy1CTV_oaAne3EALw_wcB

Cuprajake

genuine question, can you light roast a decaf bean?

must be a us thing as ive just looked at a few uk sites and most decaf are medium.

for a roaster it may not be cost effective to cater for decaf.

StellarGreg

Cuprajake
“most decaf are medium”.

Yes, I reckon you’re right. However when Scandinavians say “medium”, it really means “Light to Medium”.
Compare with Crema Shop and Bean Bros. Their De-Caffs definitely LOOK medium, but don’t taste it!!!

I’ve read that while with regular beans, the time between the different colours, or roast levels is very short, that with De-Caff, the time is even MORE critical. Yes it’s harder to get a De-Caff “Just So”.
And the colour difference between a lighter roasted De-Caff bean and a Medium or Well Roasted one is actually very small.

They tend to all look the same…

However when you say - “for a roaster it may not be cost effective to cater for decaf.” It really SHOULD be, cos there are a lot of people who NEED to drink de-caff.

I think what is “going on”, is that the De-Caff beans that they provide us with are so utterly disappointing, that people think, “What’s the Point in making an Effort”, if it tastes like THIS, then why not just drink instant De-Caff?

My solution to this is to make up my own blend. It has changed and evolved a bit…
I’ve had good results with my following current blend - for Espresso or for MokaPot.
2.5grams of L’OR Espresso Colombia - which isn’t De-Caff. (nearly 15% for my 17g Espresso, 17% for my 15g MokaPot)
1.5grams of Levazza DEK - a De-Caff which is stronger and smokier than normal.
THE REST 13grams for Espresso, 11 grams for MokaPot, is the local Mercadona regular “De-Caff”, which is “average, and creamy”. A true “OmniRoast”!
This gives a “Mostly-De-Caff”, which is very satisfying! And definitely no longer “Omni-Roast”!

Regards Greg

I’m only just starting out with MokaPot. Largely to have it available as an emergency, should my Espresso Machine require medical assistance, or organ transplant…
I started using James Hoffman’s best advice, but tended to get results that were “Too Smooth” for me.
So I’ve been upping the ground coffee dose, to the maximum I can get in there, without tamping it.
Taking the grind size to the very finest of the recomended settings!!
And NOT heating up the water before adding the coffee.
I’m now getting stronger, more satisfying results…
Sorry James - our tastes differ!

Cuprajake

do you have colour meter? or eyballing the colour

Cuprajake

@selmerfudd

Presume you missed this

Was asking if you have a colour meter to check roast levels?

shaun__

i think it is just an industry buzzword.

DavecUK

StellarGreg If the Roasters that you use provide a reliable and truthful 1 to 5 for Roast Level, then you are LUCKY!

This seems to be a very contentious issue, and many Roasters are refusing to put any guide of Roast Level on their packet.

Others give a guide which is deliberately “Personal to their Opinions” about this Contentious topic! As is the case with A Spanish Roasters that I tried, whose “5” corresponded not with “Full City”, or “French”, or “Italian”, but whose “5” corresponded with the maximum that they would consider roasting at - around “2” or “3” for anybody else…

I have suggested to many roasters, both ones I have trained and others about a fairly easy method to deal with this. However it seems to have been universally ignored as it’s either too much trouble, or perhaps they simply don’t “get it”.

When you get your coffee there is a box and in that box is the coffee, and usually a bit of advertising bumf, free gift, taster pack whatever. My solution be to add a business card with a 10 point coloured block scale light to very dark brown, each block numbered.

As the card will be printed professionally to a proper pantone spec, it’s then an easy job to keep one by the roasters, match the colour level and describe the coffee roast level (based on external colour) by a number. You at home have a card and when purchasing you can look at your card and see what roast level visually that number refers to (without the differences in computer screen renditions).

e.g. hopefully enough to get the idea.

JimmyP

DavecUK Surely it’s more complex than this? I know roasters and they have presented me with filter and espresso roasts from the same bean that look identical on the outside. My understanding is that surface colour is only 80% of the equation 🤔

MWJB

JimmyP This is why they have colour meters to measure the colour of the ground bean & confirm evenness.

I rarely see light filter roasts, not saying you can’t make a drink from med/dark beans as filter, but most roasts for espresso will not be optimal for filter. I recall one year Square Mile released a UK Barista/Brewer’s Cup pack, I think it was when John Gordon won the UKBC. The espresso beans were totally generic as brewed coffee.

DavecUK

JimmyP Surely it’s more complex than this? I know roasters and they have presented me with filter and espresso roasts from the same bean that look identical on the outside. My understanding is that surface colour is only 80% of the equation 🤔

They can grind the bean and check…but even 80% is better than nothing isn’t it?

JimmyP

MWJB You rarely see light filter roasts?!!

MWJB

JimmyP I see them advertised & described as that by the roaster, but frequently they are more like ⅖, occasionally ⅗ (medium). Filter roasts, in general, seem a fair bit darker than they were say 10 years ago.

JimmyP

MWJB Maybe shop elsewhere? I’m buying from roasters that are roasting light 🤔

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