Hi All, My Vesuvius has some strange heating behavior where it heats inconsistently. Here’s a few of the behaviors I am seeing: * Brew boiler sometimes drops temp (to like 180F) if I pull a shot it sort realizes it’s low and then starts heating again * Brew boiler sometimes doesn’t have water come out the first 5-10 second seconds regardless of pressure profile * Steam boiler does not get to temp. I’m seeing the indicator light only flicker occasionally to heat the boiler rather than stay on for any prolonged period of time. I’m wondering if I need to descale or something as I can’t quite understand this behavior. Any ideas?

@"carter840"#p72568 1. Brew boiler sometimes drops temp (to like 180F) if I pull a shot it sort realizes it’s low and then starts heating again : *This could be an effect of problem 2* 2. Brew boiler sometimes doesn’t have water come out the first 5-10 second seconds regardless of pressure profile: ***This is a key issue to fix** first, there is a problem allowing water to exit the brew boiler, which causes a void above…this must be either a significant amount, as the thermosyphon pipes exit from the top 3rd and lower part of the boiler, unlike Evo and Minima where water exits at the top.. **If the problem is severe**, then it could be dropping below the thermosyphon pipe, which would affect temperature (as the thermal probe is at the top and won't read correctly until is is immersed in water. A 5- 10 second wait for water could mean it's severe…..Equally if it's the 1 way valve and hot water, plus air is going down the pump tube, the pump could be trying to prime. Difficult to know without a video and more information about when this problem happens.* 3. Steam boiler does not get to temp. I’m seeing the indicator light only flicker occasionally to heat the boiler rather than stay on for any prolonged period of time. *I don't know, very vague description, what temp does it get to, does it always do this, is the steam fine even if the temp isn't?????*

Thanks Dave, On steam boiler. Temp really varies as when the heater activate varies. I’m seeing it sometimes get to 230-240F (and hear the vacuum valve seal), but most the time it hovers around 215F and doesn’t change much until the steam boiler turns off via eco mode. What might you suggest I try for a fix?

> @"carter840"#p72573 What might you suggest I try for a fix? Id be guessing (wthout more info), which costs you money, possibly a temperature sensor Really though this has all come out of left field, I've written 3 times as much as you, which is concerning. Plus there's so much you haven't told us.: * I don't know how old it is * I assume your in the USA * How has it been maintained * What's your water quality like * Have you descaled it before * Have you removed the top and looked inside…provide a photo * is there any other odd behaviour, large amounts of water in drip tray, constantly wet portafilter, dripping from group, hissing sounds, water coming back from boiler into pump feed pipe. etc.. * can you make YT videos showing problems (unlisted) and past the link here

Hi @"DavecUK"#1 apologies if my replies here seem out of form. I have tried to provide what I thought were helpful side effects. In regards to compensation, I’m not sure if that is a serious request / service your provide. I’m just engaging here as I do on many of forums where folks share information with one another absent fees / formal arrangements. To your recent questions, there is perhaps a bit more water in the drip tray but nothing significant (as the steam boiler doesn’t get to temp high enough to trigger the vacuum breaker and therefore I think that’s the cause of what might be minimally more water). The machine is on the older side (\~7 years I would guess) with the plastic tubing vs. the more recent models. There are no signs of a leak anywhere.

> @"carter840"#p72576 apologies if my replies here seem out of form. I have tried to provide what I thought were helpful side effects. > > In regards to compensation, I’m not sure if that is a serious request / service your provide. I’m just engaging here as I do on many of forums where folks share information with one another absent fees / formal arrangements. No apology need, the information will prove helpful in an accurate diagnosis and save you money. I don't want to see you buying parts that don't solve the problem. **I don't know where you got the compensation thing from,** I've never ever charged for my advice or help and the forum is non commercial?

@"DavecUK"#p72580 sorry again just misunderstood your post. As you move said you have twice helped me bring my machine back to good working order. I’m very appreciative of your / this forums support Do you think a video of the issue will help detail the problem? Anything else you would suggest I provide to help troubleshoot?

> @"carter840"#p72581 Do you think a video of the issue will help detail the problem? Anything else you would suggest I provide to help troubleshoot? I listed the information required, plus a photo of the insides. A a video of the machine doing what it does, when it's not working right may allow some of the people on here with significant experience to see/hear something you may not have noticed, or realised the significance of.

Here is a video I created. I noticed a few additional behaviors. * Slight drip from the group head drain * Pump takes time to build pressure (noticed that it’s not even at 1 bar for the first few seconds even when profile is a flat 9 bar) https://youtube.com/shorts/gpf1DqmW2fM?si=Z6dNo10FhkG-EWLu

Inconsistent Heating

carter840

Here is a video I created. I noticed a few additional behaviors.

Slight drip from the group head drain
Pump takes time to build pressure (noticed that it’s not even at 1 bar for the first few seconds even when profile is a flat 9 bar)

carter840

@DavecUK per the above it does seem like your diagnosis of the general issue is correct water does seem to be slowly dripping from the group head drain.

Are there specific valve / lines you suggest I check within the machine based on this? I can open it up tonight / tomorrow and grab photos and investigate more.

DavecUK

carter840 per the above it does seem like your diagnosis of the general issue is correct water does seem to be slowly dripping from the group head drain.

is this when the machine is static and doing nothing pump not running and is it fairly constant…is the portafitler always wet?

carter840

Water dripping occurs when pump is running AND when it’s not.

In terms of the Portafilter being wet I’ve not noticed it, but have noticed that when I end a shot there’s less of a gushing sound / and less water from the drain then their once was.

DavecUK

carter840 In terms of the Portafilter being wet I’ve not noticed it, but have noticed that when I end a shot there’s less of a gushing sound / and less water from the drain then their once was.

That will simple be worn cam follower pins, especially if you don’t, open the cam chamber, thoroughly dry inside surfaces and lubricate with Dow Corning Molycote 111 (it slips off a wet surface) after backflushing with cleaner, or descaling. Don’t forget to check all the things I mentioned earlier. I don’t want you doing unnecessary work.

is there any other odd behaviour, large amounts of water in drip tray, constantly wet portafilter, dripping from group, hissing sounds, water coming back from boiler into pump feed pipe. etc..

carter840

DavecUK this actually makes a lot of sense as the actuation has become unsmooth. Thanks for your expertise. I have not done a great job maintaining the grouphead, but ironically did lube the cam with molykote a few weeks back - perhaps that triggered this issue.

As the Vesuvius is somewhat of an obscure machine do you have a suggestion for a rebuild kit or just 1 or 2 parts required? I’ve looked online a bit and it seems there’s various parts depending on the maker of the e61 (I would not have thought the components varied too much). I’m based in the US

Does it make sense to order a full rebuild kit? I will plan to disassemble the group head using the link Here as a guide. I can try to assess situation once I’m in there (in terms of what parts are required), but also curious what proactive maintenance is suggested while I’m in the grouphead.

Thanks again for all of your help!

carter840

Well, I rebuilt the entire group. The leaking has stopped, but still no success on more consistent heating. Although the steam boiler does heat up eventually. It’s still basically stalling around 212F and then randomly turning on sporadically.

It frankly seems like luck if it reaches a high enough temp to trip the vacuum breaker and get up to temp. I’m wondering if there could be a scale issue.

@DavecUK to your suggestion I’m brining a photo - in this instance the mushroom head. Do you think there’s enough scale here to warrant a full descale? And could that be the issue?

DavecUK

carter840 Well, I rebuilt the entire group. The leaking has stopped, but still no success on more consistent heating. Although the steam boiler does heat up eventually. It’s still basically stalling around 212F and then randomly turning on sporadically.

Could you be more precise, how long does the steam boiler take to get to the temperature you have set or close to it. I work in centigrade so if you could convert it would be helpful, but I understand you’re saying it pauses at boiling point.

What are your PID parameters for the steam boiler and what temperature is it set to reach?

I would imagine the machine has some scaling, but I don’t think it’s causing the steam boiler heating issue, whatever it is?

carter840

@DavecUK I’ll need to get PID settings this evening. Temp is very inconsistent. Steam boiler is set to 130C but often never goes above 101C. If it does it’s random

The machine is not sending as consistent signal to hear the steam boiler - the indicator flashes very rapidly and intermittently if it flashes at all. The brew boiler will be at temp (95C) and still the steam boiler is not indicating heating. It’s very strange.

DavecUK

carter840 Might be worth changing the temp sensor on that boiler, at worst you will have a spare. They are a standard part….and you simply unclip the extension connector about 10 or 15 cm down.

carter840

DavecUK

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried swapping boiler and steam temp probes and the issue remains the same. I’m including a video below:

Do you think it could be the relay?

MediumRoastSteam

carter840 - Observation… Is it normal for the button on the right to be flickering/blinking/lighting up like that? Do you have a bad electrical connection somewhere?

DavecUK

carter840 Do you think it could be the relay?

No, I don’t think so?

This might be one for ACS support, but before you do, perhaps get a little more data, if you can. If the issue didn’t follow the temp probes, then it would seem the probes are fine. You could swap the SSRs over and see if the issue follows the SSR?

Also check for any bad connections

carter840

Also PID and all other settings are stock / copied from the values in the manual.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Observation… Is it normal for the button on the right to be flickering/blinking/lighting up like that? Do you have a bad electrical connection somewhere?

It’s normal, on the US machines they run in priority mode, never both boilers….so they flick on and off more.

carter840

DavecUK

thanks, are the SSR = solid state relays?

I will go through and check all connections - that’s a great suggestion.

DavecUK

carter840 Yes they are.

carter840

Well no luck yet. I checked all connections yesterday and then the machine started to work consistently, of course after putting it back together the issue has returned.

What’s weird is that brew temperature seems to be wrong too now. As in it reads like it’s at temp but shots taste a bit under extracted. Occasionally the brew temperature will drop a few degrees and quickly recover. Something just seems wonky across the board on the computer.

Perhaps I’ll take it apart again and check the boards.