So I'm having an issue with my machine pulling back to back shots, where the second shot is always running faster. I've tried swapping over the shots so the first to be ground is pulled second but that made no difference. I reached out to Lelit who recommended waiting a full 2 minutes between shots but it made no difference. I filmed a video with the 2 minute gaps but again they were unable to suggest what could be going wrong. I appreciated their help nonetheless. Video: Since then I've tried leaving my machine on for 30mins before using to see if it's a heat up stability issue but it's made no difference. Any help would be amazing at this point, thanks so much!

@"Juggle_Josh"#p73488 There's seems to be nothing wrong with the machine that I can see or hear? The grinder can only grind or not grind, it has no way of knowing which is the 1st or second shot. Something you can try 1. Grind 2 shots worth in to separate containers 2. fill the portafilter with the second grind and pull the shot 3. then fairly quickly dry and refill the portafilter and do the second shot What happens? Does it always always do the 2nd shot faster with all coffees. * What's your coffee dose weight? * do you use scales to weight the dose of coffee * How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard? * You're grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little * That looks like a Niche zero is that correct?

@"DavecUK"#p73490 wow thanks for the fast response and help. I'll try what you suggested and report back. To answer some of those questions * *Does it always always do the 2nd shot faster with all coffees*? **Yes, seems to happen with all coffees and I use a lot of different coffees.** * *What’s your coffee dose weight?* **18g** * *do you use scales to weight the dose of coffee?* **yup both before and after grinding** * *How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard?* **I have a (normcore) spring loaded tamper so believe I can't go past a certain amount of pressure. I thought you couldn't really tamp too hard though? 😅** * *You’re grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little* **Can you clarify what you mean by loose?** * *That looks like a Niche zero is that correct?* **Correct!** *

When machine heats up or about to heat up (after around 15-20mins) put a blind filter and back flush it three times. When temp stabilized, start brewing. It will fix the issue. Mine does same. Back flushing somehow stabilizes bar pressure on the gauge. It starts with almost 10.5bar then end of the back flushing process it drops to 9.5 and stays there. It's something to do with the old opv I guess. I don't know if the newer version behaves similar as I haven't installed the one Bella barista sent me yet.

I had a Profitec 700 back in the day and it did exactly the same - that’s an E61, Rotary pump machine. I don’t do back to back shots so for me the problem doesn’t manifest itself if there is one. If you do a quick Google with the words used in this thread, you’ll find this happens in other machines too.

> @"Juggle_Josh"#p73494 How do you tamp, do you tamp very hard? I have a (normcore) spring loaded tamper so believe I can’t go past a certain amount of pressure. I thought you couldn’t really tamp too hard though? 😅 > > You’re grind looks too loose for 18 or even a 16g shot, it needs to be tightened up a little Can you clarify what you mean by loose? Well some people try and jump on the tamper You need a finer grind Watch my video on tamping (the issues I talk about are made even worse by overly hard tamping) https://youtu.be/id4MdB83d-A?si=FHmSgdkwsJYtQ1VF

I don’t understand how “a finer grind” will solve the problem here. OP says that first shot runs ok; subsequent shot runs faster by 8 seconds or so (can’t remember exactly). Op says the behaviour is consistent. OP mentions the use of a calibrated, spring loaded tamper. How will grinding finer solve the issue?

> @"MediumRoastSteam"#p73616 How will grinding finer solve the issue? the other issue of the overly fast shot

@"DavecUK"#p73624 - I understand. But the first shot is always right - with the same grind. So if OP tightens the grind… the first shot in the session will run significantly slower. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding something here.

> @"DavecUK"#p73490 The grinder can only grind or not grind, it has no way of knowing which is the 1st or second shot. Until the new “AI” grinders come out …

Could be the OPV overshooting on the second shot. Which is the problem I used to have when I had the Elizabeth. Op. Have a look at the pressure gauge to see if does anything weird and overshoot

Lelit Elizabeth V3 back to back shot problem

Juggle_Josh

Ando

Thanks for sharing your expirence with it ha. I’m really not sure what to do. Hoping a new machine isn’t the answer, as I’ll be waiting a long time for that.

Here’s hoping I can stumble on a solution 🤞

Juggle_Josh

MediumRoastSteam

I’m knocking the coffee out and then rinsing it with water and then making sure it’s fully dry.

That’s an interesting point, the Portafilter is left in so It would be hotter the for the first shot. I’ll try heating it up without it in maybe?

Thanks

DavecUK

Juggle_Josh I’m knocking the coffee out and then rinsing it with water and then making sure it’s fully dry.

Grind your next dose, knock it out, wat 5 seconds and if you are doing a second shot, brush it out with a dry one inch paintbrush, no rinsing.

Juggle_Josh

DavecUK

Thanks I’ll do exactly this and see if it changes things

drdre89

If you want something comparable to Lelit Elizabeth in similar price range… the Rancilio Silvia Pro X is rock solid and the way to go

Juggle_Josh

Unfortunately, this didn’t fix my problem. Thanks for suggesting it though.

Juggle_Josh

Thanks for all the help everyone but I feel like crying, still can’t get this to work, no matter what I do that second shot runs faster, and I’ve tried all of the following…

Changed my setting to show actually temp
Full 30 min warm up
Multiple back flushes before starting
Not rinsing my basket with water between shots
Keeping an eye on the pressure gauge but looks similar on both shots
Waiting for temp to stabilise between shots

I’m starting to think it’s the Machine. Is all hope lost? Anyone got any further suggestions?

Thanks!

dfk41

Juggle_Josh I have not read through all this thread. Let’s create a hypothetical situation. You come to the machine for your first shot of the day. Switch it on let it warm through etc. Then you prepare the shot, pull it and we presume it is perfect. You switch the machine off and then come back to it the next day and go through the same process with the same result. This time you leave the machine on and come back to it 45 minutes later. Carry out exactly the same method and the shot pulls too quickly.

This makes me think the issue is not the machine, but some part of your process……of course I do not know what. You have said you pretty much grind and then pull the second shot. Can I ask another daft question. Where exactly do you store your beans in terms of distance from the machine? Could it be something as simple as the beans are stored in a canister in close proximity to the machine and the heat radiating out is warming the beans up? Have you ever ground some beans, put them into the pf and locked it in. At that exact second before you commence the shot the doorbell goes. It takes you 20 seconds to walk to the door then back again. You pull the shot and it is a gusher. Sorry if my thoughts are daft but I feel we are overlooking something here

Juggle_Josh

dfk41

The Beans are normally in either in the bag, in an airscape or in the freezer (sometimes I grind straight from there), I’ve tried with all of these and had the same results, so i’m not sure how they can be the issue? I’ve also tried both grinding and not grinding both shots together.

I think I’m very consistent with how long I put the portafilter in before pulling the shot (not very long).

I appreciate the help brainstorming, but still no sure we have an answer! Thanks

dfk41

Juggle_Josh Yep, but we can now put a couple of things to bed. The machine being faulty is always a possibility of course, but we have one or two resident experts on here which suggests that they are out of ideas as well! Have you a thermometer? If so let it come to working temp then take the pf out and pull some water through the group and stick the thermometer in. Do the same again after 30 seconds and again afew more times. If everything is ok then there should not be much much variation?

Disclaimer: I am a well known idiot mechanically but I can usually follow a process through. We are trying to establish no temp variation. If you have one of those digital thermometers that project a light dot, do the same to the group before and after pulling shots

Juggle_Josh

dfk41

Again thanks for the help! Sorry for the late response, I’ve been ill this last week.

I ran some tests holding the thermometer under the group, 30 seconds at a time but not sure how much we can read it?

Test results:

Test 1

1. 60°, 2. 55°, 3. 49°, 4. 53°

Test 2

1. 50°, 2. 51°, 3. 60°, 4. 63°

The results seem a bit random not sure how accurate it is? Would you recommend the same tests before and after pulling shots still?

DavecUK

Juggle_Josh I ran some tests holding the thermometer under the group, 30 seconds at a time but not sure how much we can read it?

It’s not a good test at all, don’t place any value on the result.

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