Behmor Roaster

Gagaryn

Does anyone have experience of these?

I see Hasbean have them on offer until Christmas for £250 which seems pretty cheap. But it might not be the bargain that it seems if consensus is there are better options available. I’m in no rush to start roasting but will want to give it a go at some point, so might be some sense in picking one up at this price if they are reasonable.

DavecUK

Gagaryn It seems a very good price considering the Behmor on it’s own is listed on their site at £380 and everywhere else, it’s considerable more expensive, even in the USA!

The first Behmors many many years ago were bigged up immensely but had a lot of issues, one hopes many of those were resolved with this model, but I don’t know? I guess the question to ask is….why is it that cheap as a Christmas bundle, they must be selling them close to cost price, or even at cost price.

However, for £250 it’s probably worth a go, and I am sure people here would benefit from any feedback you have.

MediumRoastSteam

I’d buy one if I were in the market for one. Some members on CF uk have it and enjoy it.

Gagaryn

I imagine they are either dropping Behmor completely or there is a replacement model in the pipeline. I think it’s probably worth a punt, I’ll have a look at reviews and make my mind up.

CoffeePhilE

I saw that deal and my reaction was identical - either clearing stock prior to stopping doing them, or prior to a replacement model. However ,,,, does that matter? Certainly, I’d argue in the latter case, not much … unless the new model (if there is one) has some must-have, killer new features.

In my own case, I was hovering between Gene Cafe and the Behmor, but I am starting to thing either the Sandbox or something like the Ikawa might be a better bet. Yes, a lot more expensive and yes, limited capacity but that limited capacity means roasting more often. And that is both an advantahge and disadvantage. The more I investigate, the more I feel the need to learn about roasting, and THEN doing small batches and being able to keep almost all parameters fixed and consistent (via profile) makes it much easier to learn the effects of changing just one parameter. Also, the bigger the batch, the more expensive any batch-ruining cockups will be.

I can stomach the extra up-front cost if I need to, but avoiding the hassle of buying the wrong machine and having to sell and buy again is important for me to avoid.

But the whole thing is so new to me that picking the right TYPE of roaster, never mind brand/model, is not easy.

Doram

CoffeePhilE yes, limited capacity but that limited capacity means roasting more often. And that is both an advantahge and disadvantage. The more I investigate, the more I feel the need to learn about roasting, and THEN doing small batches and being able to keep almost all parameters fixed and consistent (via profile) makes it much easier to learn the effects of changing just one parameter. Also, the bigger the batch, the more expensive any batch-ruining cockups will be.

My two cents: I wouldn’t get something with a very small capacity. You can always do a small batch on a machine with larger capacity, but not the other way around. Remember that you lose weight in the roasting process. From 100 grams - what will you have left? How much do you use in a shot? How many shots will you get our of it? You want to be able to dial in, then have some left to enjoy. And you need to rest the beans, so might be a week or two before they peak and you find out what you have. Or you might want to taste the coffee in intervals to find the optimal resting time… For me 100 gram batches seem impractical, and I think I would get tired of that quite quickly.

I am using the Gene, by the way, which can do ~250 grams batches. Don’t have experience with many other roasters, as I got mine in 2009 and it’s still going strong. I read some people think the Behmor is an upgrade over the Gene, while others think the Gene is an upgrade from the Behmor. With the current offer prices, if I were in the market for a roaster, I would be quick to snatch either the Behmor or the Gene before they go up in price again (but of course it could be that they are reduced because a new model is on the way, if that’s a concern).

Gagaryn

I think you are reading my mind. Was just back looking at the Sandbox, seems the Bella Barista 25% discount offer is no longer valid. But if the Ikawa produces decent results the lack of hassle would be worth the extra expense I think.

CoffeePhilE

I think (note - THINK) the BB offer is still valid but it wasn’t entirely clear, I grant you. It isn’t on the “current offers” bit, but I did find a page with a date suggesting it was still on. If I decide on Sandbox obver Ikawa (and am leaning that way) I’ll ring and ask them. The decision between Ikawa and Sandbox is closer if it isn’t still on.

Del_UK

I’ve had a Behmor for about 5 months now and have been enjoying using it a lot but I don’t have anything else to compare to as it’s my only experience with roasting.

I like the fact it’s really quick to preheat and get to roasting, it takes me about 20-25 mins to roast 400g from start to finish. It’s got a bit of information on temperatures, exhaust and “drum” (though it states it a thermostat near the drum and not in it) so I can now judge when beans are about to crack pretty well and have had a few consistent roasts recently! The pre-set profiles seem to be working nicely too, and there’s the option to adjust things on the fly, but I’ve not ventured that deeply, yet..

I dislike the drum. It’s a absolute (can we swear here, I won’t just in case…?) twit to get the drum out sometimes unless you have a thin heatproof glove (which I still don’t so it’s slightly self inflicted) which makes the cooling process a tad clumsy at times. Also, the cooling function is a bit useless as it stays really hot for a fair few minutes so I always dump the beans into a separate cooler (AliExpress, £44, brilliant!)

Happy to answer any more questions, and I’m roasting later on so happy to take photos etc if wanted.

MediumRoastSteam

Del_UK into a separate cooler (AliExpress, £44, brilliant!)

I’ve been recently doing this with the Gene, to finish off the cooling process. I made the cooling with a cardboard box and a colander, attached to a Henry hoover. Gets rid of chaff and cool down pretty quickly. I’ll take a photo later, as having trouble uploading images at the moment.

MediumRoastSteam

Del_UK Also, the cooling function is a bit useless as it stays really hot for a fair few minutes so I always dump the beans into a separate cooler

When you do that, do you literally open the roaster’s door, remove the chaff tray, the drum, dump the beans and re-activate the cooling cycle? Do you do so with with the chaff tray and drum back in the roaster (more swearing to attach it!!!!) or do you leave those outside?

Del_UK

MediumRoastSteam

I did have something that I lashed together using a 6 inch extractor fan, but after it began falling apart and nearly took the tip of my thumb off, I decided £44 isn’t that much to spend.

MediumRoastSteam

Del_UK - have you a link to it?

Del_UK

MediumRoastSteam

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002885637213.html?spm=a2g0n.orderlist-amp.item.1005002885637213&aff_trace_key=95be2f06a6cc47bc801fb37418b0060c-1637051935022-05060-UneMJZVf&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=9822amp-T6C0S2D9YC3lSNuHpe5KiA1638710847525&browser_id=c9ff8a4add5e465eaacd754006444dfe&is_c=N

Actually a couple of quid cheaper than I paid!

MediumRoastSteam

Del_UK - interesting! Very similar to the cooling tray offered with the Sandbox!

MediumRoastSteam

This is my cooling apparatus…

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Very good, cools the beans and sucks up all the chaff….

Del_UK

Doram

I agree, and you can always make a small batch in a big roaster, but you can’t make a big batch in a small one. The Behmor will happily roast 100g but that’ll only give 80-90g of roasted, which for me is only about 5 shots.

CoffeePhilE

Doram All good points.

To adresss some of them ….

how many shots? Well, typically, 18g for espresso, but more for a Clever jug. How many of each I do varies day to day, and which one depends on time of day, and mood. . Rarely more tha 3 or 4 ina day, and typical is probably about 2.5. I also tend to switch to decaf in the evening, so it’s likely I’ll have three or even four bean selections on the go at any given time, and I’m normally the only one drinking ‘proper’ coffee. The bigger they are, the older they get by the time I get to the end.
According to Dave’s review, the theoretical 100g max is actually more like 150g. I assume, perhas erroneously, that there is a degree of repeatability if roasting to a known profile, in fairly short order. Yeah, beans can change as they age, but how much difference (and so how much dialing in) will be needed if I roast bean x on Monday, then again on say Thursday (given consistency in as many factors as possible, especially weight, but also environmental factors like ambient temperature, whether first roast of several back to back roasts or whether the roaster is already hot, etc).
Agreed on most beans needing resting time. That’s a matter of planning, though. If I expect to need them on Friday, and they need (say) 5 days rest after roast to optimise, I need to roast on Sat/Sunday.
I take the point about it “getting old quick”. My circumstances do lend themselves to that, though. It certainly wouldn’t for lots of people.
Again, due to circumstances, getting more roasts done in a short period of time accelerates the learning curve. For me, doing two or three a week is a good thing, compared to doing two or three a month, for larger batches. I agree that usually those small batches would be a negative, but for me, I think they’re actually a positive. Maybe I need to explain why. Let me think about that a bit.
I also take the point about “loss”. I understand 11-15% weight is about typical, but it varies bean to bean.
One of the things that puts me off the Behmor is what appears a rather awkward manouvre getting the cage in, and especially out. Without gory details, I have very restricted usage of my left arm and, at least short of a finger amputation op, no way am I getting my left hand inside a glove, and have limited strength/movement in that arm anyway. A mitt? Maybe.
The Gene seems, from watching videos, to be much easier for me than the Behmor, in relation to getting the cage in or out, The Nano even more so, and the Ikawa is a dream in that regard.
Repeatability. I think there, the Sandbox does pretty well, and probably (at a price) the Ikawa even more so. In case you haven’t seen it, you load a measured quantity of beans in a kind-of feed chamber in the top of the Ikawa, then “drop” into the pre-heated roasted rather like more commercial roasters, but on a micro scale. They roast on a fluid air bed, and, upon completion, you push a button and they’re dumped into the waiting containers. The Ikawa especially seems, to me, to be designed as a sample roaster for bigger machines, and seems to concentrte on better sensor data, giving profiles that are transferable to bigger roasters, and hence, have to be somewhat repeatable.
I want to stress, I don’t and never have roasted so much as bean 1. This is what I’m picking up from watching videos, both on product demos but also theory and commercial roasting classes, and from reading books. But I’m painfully aware that that kind of research only carries me so far, which is why I value opinions from you guys.
So, from the last point, this post isn’t intended to argue with you. I’m trying to explain why my priorities might be a bit different to yours, and most people’s. I hope. And that as a result, the ‘best’ machine might be, too.
I started out thinking exactly as you outlined, and concluded the same - Gene or Behmor. It’s just that the more I looked, and the more I thought about it, the more the single biggest weakness of “sample” roasters, capacity, started to look like a strength, in my case.

One thing currently making me very, very nervous about the Sandbox (and other Smart App roasters) is, well, needing to control it via a phone. Even more so,the “VIP” mode subscription. That frosts my conkers badly. And I have so far failed to find out what it costs, or how the roaster is limited if you don’t have the ‘VIP’ subscription. I very much resent the notion of paying that much for the roaster, then having to pay a subscription to use it, so whether that aspect kills the Sandbox stone dead for me will depend on how much, and what not having it locks out.

If the subscription is to fund extra services, the provision of which incurs a cost for the providers, then fair enough. If not having it restricts the ability to control the actual hardware, then it’s a non-starter for me.

Del_UK

CoffeePhilE

Based on that, I wouldn’t get the Behmor. It is as I said a pain to get the cage out when hot and then unclip and dump the beans.

I was tempted by the Sandbox also but like you, didn’t Like the idea of a premium VIP cost for what are, as far as I could tell, user generated profiles.

MediumRoastSteam

CoffeePhilE

With regards to the sandbox subscription…. Exactly my thoughts. If you are not registered, you can still use the roaster, but you are limited on what you can do… I.e.: no custom profiles, etc.

If register, you can use the roaster to its full potential, the VIP giving you some extra perks.

My concern, similar to yours, is… if Sandbox smart decides not to support a particular phone, or goes bust, or whatever… what happens? What if hey block you from using the app, etc?

So, no, based on that alone, it’s a no no for me. I wish it could be controlled by some small buttons on the machine, or some sort of control box you could buy. The phone being an add on.

It’s a great roaster, however. If it wasn’t for the roasting over the phone aspect, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

Doram

CoffeePhilE Only you know what you want/need and what will work for you. I was just pointing out that you have to know that a small batch means you need to roast more often, so you should be sure you are happy to do that (not only in the initial excitement phase, but also when you just want to drink coffee and enjoy it).

You mentioned having 3-4 beans at a time. You also mentioned 5-day resting. You said correctly that it’s about planning. I currently find my roasts peak at ~14 days (not 5), for expresso. I think if I wanted to have 3-4 different beans, all perfectly rested and done in 100 gram batches (netting 80-90 grams each - which would give you 5 shots max each, and less than that in the Clever jug) - I would be constantly roasting and planning, with not much time left to enjoy life. If this works for you and this is what you want - it’s all good. Personally I would prefer something that enables me to do a bigger batch, knowing that I could always do smaller batches as well if I wanted to.

I have never seen the IKAWA or the Nano in real life, so this might be completely unfair, but looking at some videos they remind me of the popcorn poppers I started roasting on 25 years ago. To me they look like VERY overpriced popcorn poppers with a chip and some electronics. But again - maybe this isn’t fair.

Rob1

@Gagaryn

Price difference between the Sandbox (with cooler) and Ikawa is not that huge really - £970 vs £695. If the Ikawa offers similar results then the extra cost is worth the convenience to me - smaller, neater, all-in one with no external cooling and no chaff flying around the room etc.

I don’t think you get chaff flying around the room with the Sandbox. The Ikawa is an air roaster and without saying one will be better than the other the results will be different.

@CoffeePhilE

The Pro versions have much more control, for instance over both inlet and exhaust vent air temps, and apparently, either by inference or sensor (not sure which) bean mass temp. The idea is to test/develop rost profiles on the Ikawa that can then be transferred to commercial roasters that do have bean mass temp probes.

You can’t transfer profiles from the Ikawa or any other air roaster to a larger drum roaster. It might be somewhat possible to transfer to a larger batch air roaster but I think even that would be unlikely to be an exact transfer as batch size, temp control and airflow will mean you need to make changes. These are ‘sample’ roasters for cupping. Excellent for roasters and importers to assess green beans and very useful in that they are portable so can be taken to farms to sample coffee. Not really good for exploring what flavours you can get when you roast at a larger scale (though you’d at least get an idea) but good for cupping, assessing defects and coming up with some flavour notes.

I think when you buy these air roasters you’re paying mostly for the software, and in the case of professional portable options the use case for importers and roasters make it valuable.

CoffeePhilE Again, due to circumstances, getting more roasts done in a short period of time accelerates the learning curve. For me, doing two or three a week is a good thing, compared to doing two or three a month, for larger batches. I agree that usually those small batches would be a negative, but for me, I think they’re actually a positive. Maybe I need to explain why. Let me think about that a bit.

I’m not sure it will accelerate the learning curve the way you think it will. You will learn how not to get terrible results quickly but you could very easily just end up in confusion especially when you’re just learning if you try to do things more complex to alter flavour notes. When you’ve been roasting a bit maybe four small batches would be good and then you can run a final one that should hopefully be the one you use over and over again. The problem is coffee will change and it can be quite a substantial and unpredictable change over a period of time, and not even necessarily linear i.e. flavours evolve over time and don’t just go from not there (needs resting) - there (rested) - losing notes on the way to going stale. I’ve noticed significant changes in roasts from week 1 all the way to week 6-8 before the changes become predictable (i.e tailing off on the way to going stale) with some really being at their very best right up to the end of that window. If you’re making 100g batches you’re not going to taste them for 6 weeks…..though I guess you could make the argument that you would only be interested in roasting coffee in such a way that it’s ready to drink within a week even if that means it’s not the best you could get out of it. Of course, you can still do repeatable small batches and let some rest for long periods. My point is you aren’t necessarily going to be learning faster doing 3 or 4 roasts a week compared to 1 a week once you get past the initial few batches and can get something approximating a decent roast, which should happen fairly quickly if you use good coffee and don’t make the mistake of buying something cheap to learn with.

CoffeePhilE

MediumRoastSteam

Exactly. A pet peeve of mine in the PC gaming world is Steam …. being committed to launching via their platform, despite havning paid £40, £50 or more per game, So if they go broke, ban me, whatever, then what? I could have (probably would have) spent a few grand on games, but for that. But, not doing it.

On the Sandbox, if VIP gives you forum access and finding/loading profiles from others in there, then fair enough. But what if I get a profile directly from a mate with a Sandbox? What about creating one manually? What about another Sandbox user on here?

Perhaps most insidious …. if I buy into the hardware now, what’s to stop them changing their mind about what they decide they’ll let me do with “their” roaster, in the future? It isn’t their damn roaster, once I:ve bought it. It’s mine. And I don’t like the idea of them deciding, post-sale, that I shouldn’t be allowed to do this or that, when if they’d said that before I bought it, I wouldn’t have bought it.

I have a DJI drone and am in that position with that. So far, thankfully, I haven’t been screwed over by them …. and it’s a cracking (like the coffee reference?) little drone too. But I’m aware of the possibility.

Ditto the Nano, which seems both better and worse. That, it seems, you have to create or edit a profile on a computer (Windows or Linux-based in my case) and then upload it to a USB stick. Then transfer from USB to the roaster, after which you appear to have very little control. Again, not ideal.

The Ikawa? Dunno. Still trying to get my head around that,

But those factors might be what brings me back to Gene/Behmor …. or to just buying my coffee roasted for me.