Just downloaded footage from my secret webcam in the kitchen of @"DavecUK"#1 only to discover that he's been holding out on us! Cmon Dave, spill the beans (not the coffee ones) on this geourgeous looking leva. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/Y7e0uuz.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Y7e0uuz.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

For this machine it's one of the first made, and I am doing an Engineering review on it for Antonio (the creator) as a favour, so I can't really comment at this stage. But I can post photos….and say that the Paddle levers on this are very basic beta ones….so that area is still in the design melting pot.

needs to be 50mm shorter for a uk work top haha i believe this is a commercial focsed machine?

I love the look of these sorts of lever machines, but they really need to at least try to make them a bit more compact in design. They're either lacking in that area of expertise or they don't care… A more compact design would look like a much better centre piece in a kitchen (and take less space in a commercial setting), rather than protruding till the near edge. The size distracts from the elegance of it.

Certainly a looker. I'm sure we will all look forward to your thoughts when you are able to comment.

@"Cuprajake"#p10000 no it's for the home market

@"Cuprajake"#p10000 from the nurri website https://www.nurri.coffee/portfolio-item/nurri-leva-sa-machine/ L-TYPE LEVA S.A. is a professional machine. Yes. But it is designed for those who want to enjoy quality espresso at home, making it with the same passion and competence of a professional bartender.

@"tompoland"#p10004 I like how they stuck Patent Pending on everything 🤣 a bit unprofessional.

@"Sham"#p10001 I agree when it comes to similar sized Levers that require external plumbing or flojet type arrangement. But the Nurri is dual boiler and plumbing is optional. Still, I agree that it's a lot for a normal kitchen. I like the footprint on the Decent for example.

Powder coated version. Wow. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/7uFzqtw.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/7uFzqtw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"tompoland"#p10007 In that case they should have either decreased tank sizes and utilised quicker water heating technology (I'm sure there's loads of options from other industry's) or started with a more wide design but I guess that would've cost too much R&D time. One way to think of it is that they won't lose customers if its small, but they will lose customers if its too big. It does look pretty nice though.

Nurri Leva S.A.

tompoland

LMSC am correct, the 1C undershoot was t3 (group).

Double and tripled checked: that’s correct and @chlorox I can confirm that T3 is set to 93 but this morning stopped at 92, then 91.

I don’t know if I simply misread it the other day but I’ll keep an eye on it.

chlorox

tompoland

Did you try to experiment by changing to different temps for t3 to see if the same shortfall is consistently happening? If so then the patch may also be applicable to your machine.

tompoland

CoyoteOldMan

Sounds like fun and useful for the review.

I’ll have a crack at it this weekend.

But if I break it then I’ll need you to pop over and put it together again. I’ll even pay for the bus ticket. 😀

CoyoteOldMan

tompoland Deal!

simonko

I’ll have a crack at it this weekend.

That’s Aussie slang for attempting something, btw. Tom (hopefully) won’t be cracking his machine.

chlorox

CoyoteOldMan

Maths was never my atrong point and I probably understood only a small proportion of what you typed but I think I see the gist of what you meant…

I should say that nonetheless in practice the system takes quite quickly to reach the targeted temperature for all three components and doesn’t fluctuate much upon getting there, so I don’t think it makes any tangible difference performance wise.

LMSC

chlorox I should say that nonetheless in practice the system takes quite quickly to reach the targeted temperature for all three components and doesn’t fluctuate much upon getting there, so I don’t think it makes any tangible difference performance wise.

What’s the range you are getting across t1 to t3 once the machine is fully warmed up and stable - after 30 mins?

The default setting looks fine, IMO, for the brew boiler; it closely resembles our settings, although we have another parameter (B) for the PID, which seems not relevant here.

Ignoring the steam boiler, the P value especially is perhaps not sufficient for the group. Most of us would have a higher P for the group (like 2) compared to the brew boiler (like 1). But, I won’t change it until the patch arrives. as it is common for all the ts

The way I have understood the PID is as follows. This understanding is on the basis of my chats with Dave in the past and fiddling with my Evo extensively!

The P (Proportional) applies power to the heating elements in proportion to how far you are from the set point. Its main drawback is that the closer you get to the set point, the less power it applies. A smaller value of P in increments might make the group very slow to recover, too large and you might get overshoots.
The D (derivative) acts as a kind of a balancer in simple terms. It measures the change over speed. It acts like a brake or a dampener on how much power the P uses. The low values of D can cause overshoots; and, the high values of D can make response sluggish.
The I (Integral) tries to even out the difference of the time spent above and below the set point. If you’ve set 93C as your set point and spent 30s running below, it will try to push the group over to 93C for similar amount of time. This action compensates for P’s inability to make that last effort. It is not advisable to change it from the default value, unless one knows what is being done and the effect it can have. A small change can have a larger effect.

chlorox

CoyoteOldMan

Sorry for maybe asking a rookie question but you mean that the way used in the vostok and evo to fill the groupheas differs from the typical LSM grouphead design?

CoyoteOldMan

chlorox Sorry for maybe asking a rookie question but you mean that the way used in the vostok and evo to fill the groupheas differs from the typical LSM grouphead design?

As far as I know, yes - I believe on the original LSM group the position of the seals and the placement of the water ingress is different.

tompoland

chlorox seems to be one or two degrees short. I adjusted T3 to 95c this morning and it seemed to stick to 93c all morning.

DavecUK

LMSC one of the problems of having proportional and a positive value of B (temperature range at which the controller works as a p i d); Steaming power is reduced.

This is because when steaming the temperature of the boiler is always a degree or two below the setpoint, and that means the proportional value is always trimming down the power applied to the heating element because it’s near the set point and because B is a positive value it’s acting like a pid. This is exactly what we don’t want when steaming, we want the p&id really to act as a pure on off controller with no proportional limiting. On the early duetos where they started using the pid with shared parameters to control the steam boiler, steaming power was reduced by about 20% vs the earlier models which used a pressurestat. I’m assuming the change on the new Nurri might be to have three lots of pid parameters, in which case the steaming could probably be improved.

chlorox

LMSC

As a neo-Luddite who would have had great difficulty programming a vcr in the old days, i am just going to pretend I understood that LOL

LMSC

DavecUK Steaming power is reduced.

we want the p&id really to act as a pure on off controller with no proportional limiting

Exactly! That’s why we not only have the B set as 1 and the P at 10 on our Evo — 10, 0, 5, 1. This gives a lot of oomph to the steam boiler.

It will there be good if the patch brings separate PIDs for each function.

chlorox

DavecUK

So does that mean that the P value for the steam boiler needs to be higher?

tompoland

I’m no expert on steaming Dave but on the couple of occasions I’ve played with the steam wand the steam coming out is tremendously powerful. It’s honestly hard for me to imagine needing anything stronger, it looks as powerful as a freaking rocketship.

But I rarely steam and when I do it’s only for guests and I use the Decent which is seriously unimpressive steam-wise compared to the Nurri. So I’m hardly the voice of experience when it comes to steaming.

But maybe @chlorox has more experience in the steaming department.

chlorox

tompoland

I have no issues with the steaming power of the nurri, coming as I was from the izzo pompei that had steam power that was so over the top thar it seemed enough to flash fry a goose (half joking lol)…

CoyoteOldMan

tompoland I rarely steam and when I do it’s only for guests and I use the Decent

Sorry for the slight OT, but why do you use the Decent for guests? I’d show the Nurri off - it’s much prettier and more theatrical…

tompoland

CoyoteOldMan a couple of reasons.

Firstly it’s a lazier way to get great espresso pretty fast.

Secondly because most guests don’t seem to be as impressed as I am with my display of coffee toys I.e. they aren’t really interested in the difference between the machines (and the ones who express any interest normally regret it 25 minutes later when I finally shut up.)

But yes, agree that the Nurri has it all over the Decent for sensuality.

LMSC

chlorox After running the machine for 30 mins, you need to observe the temp oscillations from the set point, the average difference from the set point, etc. A 0.5C osc is normal as long as the machine has been running for 30 mins from cold start and you haven’t pulled a shot or flushed.

IMO, the P is perhaps ok for the brew boiler as you guys don’t seem to be fine.

chlorox

LMSC

The pid doesn’t show increments less than 1 degree. But from recollection where rhe machine is sitting unused, i have hardly ever noticed any movement or oscillation from the set temp.

chlorox

tompoland

Isn’t it annoying that the first question non coffee people tend to ask is - how much does it cost? The correct answer is always - its not for sale :)

CoyoteOldMan

tompoland it’s a lazier way to get great espresso pretty fast

That’s the bit that I was trying to understand - is the Decent really faster to use than a lever? Where’s the fuss (as seen/perceived by you/your guests)?

I have my only machine (lever) on a smart plug, so I can turn it on remotely - if I expect guests, I will do so 10 minutes before they arrive, so the group warms up without massive electricity consumption (it’s 200W maximum), and only turn on the big guns in the boilers once the visitors arrive (boiler warming takes 5 minutes from 20 °C cold) - the machine is in the kitchen, near the entrance, so it’s also ‘on the way to opening the door’.

I’m not pushing back at all; I’m just curious and trying to understand what makes the Decent ‘lazier’. It seems more complicated to me, but I haven’t used it; I’ve only seen videos.

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