Water help needed please

Java_avaJ

I would really appreciate some help with working out my water analysis and how to best proceed please. I’m completely stuck and feel a right dunce.

I’ve been reading the threads on this forum and on coffeeforum about water and I bought a Zero Water jug and an API GH & KH water testing kit (https://apifishcare.com/product/gh-kh-test-kit). I downloaded the water report from my local authority and I downloaded a copy of the Scaling Potential Calculator. Unfortunately I can’t make head nor tail of what figures to extract from the water report, how to interpret the GH/KH test kit figures and which figures to put where in the Water Spreadsheet Calculator. So I was hoping someone might take a look and help me out.

My water authority figures are at

https://www.nwl.co.uk/globalassets/sharepoint-documents/think-digital-documents—all-documents/N240.pdf

With regards to the results I got from the API GH & KH test kit I found that using the Zero Water water I needed 2 drops of the KH test and 2 drops of the GH kit to get the colour change they talk about, which, according to their table says ºdKH is 2 and ppm GH/KH is 35.8 (no idea what ºdKH is). Then using tap water the KH needed 3 drops to change colour which says ºdKH is 3 and ppm GH/KH is 53.7; the GH test needed 5 drops so ºdKH is 5 and ppm GH/KH 89.5.

The trouble is I don’t know what those figures mean and especially, as is the case with the tap water, there are a different number of drops needed for KH and GH, which column and row is the one I need to look at - this is the manual that comes with the kit: https://apifishcare.com/pdfs/products-us/gh-kh-test-kit/api-gh-&-kh-test-kit-instruction-manual.pdf

For the past 2 weeks I’ve simply been avoiding the problem and only using the Zero Water water but the last thing I want is to f*** up my new ACS Minima with scaling so if anyone has the time and inclination to look at the figures and tell me what I need to put where in the Water Spreadsheet Calculator and then what adjustment, if any, I need to make to the Zero Water I’d really appreciate it.

A million thanks

Rob1

Java_avaJ

You need to increase the resolution of the API water test by using a larger sample. e.g a 20ml sample instead of 5ml will be 4x more accurate and instead of 1 drop of the reagent = approx 17.9ppm it’ll be 4.475ppm

The test is giving you results in degrees, there’ll be a leaflet in there to translate it to ppm which is the same as mg/l. GH is General hardness, KH is alkalinity. Both are expressed “as CaCO3” so when you say you put a figure in the spreadsheet for CaCO3 it’s not clear if you put it in there for hardness to alkalinity.

Some water reports don’t list alkalinity as CaCo3 and they might not even list bicarbonate either. Sometimes there is a more in depth report a few clicks away though. Your test kit will likely give you more current results anyway, just so long as you use it right. Only add drops until the colour changes, don’t wait for the colour to change to a “bright” colour that the instructions describe. I use a little espresso cup for a 20ml sample and just stir it continuously while adding a drop at a time.

You need to sort out your zero jug because it’s not filtering properly.

Java_avaJ

I’ll try to be more specific about what I understand and what I don’t with regards to the water info and the spreadsheet:

Looking at the Brewer’s Information on page 2 of the NWL water information I have started to fill out the first page of the Water Spreadsheet and I have:

set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4)
However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report.

Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly
C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report

Temp I’ve set at 93, and I did a TDS reading of 140 using a meter I bought.

Any suggestions where I find the values for those missing cells?

I’m still further worried that when I find those missing values I still don’t stand a chance of filling the other pages of the spreadsheet. I’ve looked at the Remineralisation Page example and don’t understand a word, and that’s with me reading it carefully half a dozen times. I think I’ll just go and make a coffee… and put some brandy in it :-)

Rob1

Java_avaJ set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4)
However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report.

Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly
C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report

In addition to the above point re things being described “as CaCO3” you’ve probably noticed that the spreadsheet gives you a “Total hardness as CaCO3” figure pretty much equal to the value you stuck into the carbonate cell. You need to remove that because what you’ve done is add the hardness as CaCO3 to the part of the spreadsheet used to calculate alkalinity if the water report gives you Carbonate or Bicarbonate figures…..

dutchy101

I have a zero jug and use it with my tap water which is very hard (circa 350 tds). The zero water is literally zero after filtered. I remineralise with 320mg of sodium bicarbonate per 5 litres of zero water to raise the alkalinity

simonc

dutchy101 I am looking to do the same as an easier water solution, but are you only using bicarb and not magnesium (Epsom salts)?

MWJB

“(no idea what ºdKH is)” One degree German - 17.9ppm, hence 2 drops = 35.8ppm.

It’s normal for water to have differing amounts of hardness (GH) and alkalinity (KH), the figures can be the same, but shouldn’t be expected to be equal.

Are you sure the seal around the Zero filter is good, you should be getting 0TDS. No hardness, no alkalinity.

Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug).

Java_avaJ

MWJB The figures I’ve put in the spreadsheet, with hardness etc, are for my tap water, hence the 140 for hardness and the other figures. Should I fill in the spreadsheet again perhaps and put in figures that I have from the API water test?

Java_avaJ

MWJB Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug)

Are you choosing those proportions based on the figures for my tap water that I’ve put in the spreadsheet (assuming 0TDS from the jug) - or is that a general ratio starting point?

dutchy101

simonc

Yes I’m only using sodium bicarbonate based on conversations I had in the bottled water thread.

Rob1

Java_avaJ

It’ll be based on the figures.

Rob1

Oh…..just looked at your water report. Alkalinity is listed at an average of 54mg/l.

So if you follow the instructions on the spreadsheet this will be a fairly simple task for you.

“EDIT VALUES IN YELLOW CELLS ONLY UNLESS YOU KNOW THE ALKALINITY AND HARDNESS AS CaCO3 TO ENTER IN CELLS B15 & B16”

So you just need to edit B15 and B16…..along with inputting the max temp (Minima probably about 125c but you can go higher or lower).

Java_avaJ

Rob1 Oh…..just looked at your water report. Alkalinity is listed at an average of 54mg/l.

So if you follow the instructions on the spreadsheet this will be a fairly simple task for you.

“EDIT VALUES IN YELLOW CELLS ONLY UNLESS YOU KNOW THE ALKALINITY AND HARDNESS AS CaCO3 TO ENTER IN CELLS B15 & B16”

So you just need to edit B15 and B16…..along with inputting the max temp (Minima probably about 125c but you can go higher or lower).

Hi Rob, thanks for pitching in. I apologise in advance if you’ve answered some of the queries that follow.

So, what I’ve done, using your suggestions, is increase the temperature to 125, I’d put the brewer temperature, 93 not the steam boiler temp since I thought that was what was needed. Then I’ve created two spreadsheets, one with the numbers for the tap water and another for numbers using the Zero Water jug. However, I’m not sure I’m putting numbers in the right place, I imagine it seems obvious to you but it’s not for me, hope you can bear with me. For the tap water figures I’ve put zero for cells B3 to B6 and I’ve put in B9, calcium, as 47.73 and Magnesium, cell B10 as 5.09 as per my water report. Temp as 125 and TDS, cell B13, is 100, not 140 that I had before. I’ve put the Alkalinity in B15 as 54, as you point out that’s what’s in the water report. Hardness, Cell B16 is calculated from the Ca Mg figures and comes out as 140.155

Then for the Zero Water jug, I’ve left all B3 to B10 the same since they don’t seem to be used if I put in figures for cells B15 and B16, which are 32.22 and 103.82 respectively - those figures are from my API test but have I done the right thing? They’re the KH and GH ppm figures from the test (I did the scaling up as you recommended).

My next problem is that, if what I’ve done above is correct, then I don’t know how to interpret the results! What do cells B18 to B24 mean and what do I now do with my tap and zero jug water; do I add 64g per litre of zero water as @dutchy101 suggests or do I mix 3 parts of my tap water to 1 part zero water as @MWJB says, or do I do something else? I don’t know what the Calculations figures mean and those figures don’t seem to be referenced in the Water Remineralisation page.

Sorry guys to be needing so much hand holding

dfk41

I watched this….went well over my head but some might understand it!

Rob1

dfk41

Not heard anything about chloride and sulfate affecting bitterness, especially not in relation to their ratios. To be honest it’s not something I care about as I’m not about to start adding chloride to the water. My shots are plenty sweet and lacking bitterness so pass on that one.

You don’t really need hardness to extract properly. It will affect the taste but only because it affects the taste of the water, a bit of Ca will be a bit creamy and IMO Mg is sweet but I think people have different perceptions. Fairly certain MWJB posted a link to a discussion somewhere in which Chris Hendon or Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood admitted hardness doesn’t affect extraction and suggested they’d amend the Water for Coffee book. Maybe I’ve got some wires crossed there but there are a variety of sources conducting experiments and they all come to wildly different conclusions with the result of one even showing distilled water with no hardness and no alkalinity produced the best tasting coffee.

dutchy101

Java_avaJ I gave up on trying to use the spreadsheet as I was getting completely bamboozled by it. Instead I filtered my tap water through the Zero Water jug and then added sodium bicarbonate to bring up the alkalinity. I was testing this with a drop test kit, which confirmed that adding the 320mg per 5 litres of water brought the alkalinity up to the correct level. This corroborated with the advice I was being given in the bottled water thread and I decided to stick with this method as it will give me the most consistent water - tap water and it’s levels are subject to change regularly whereas the zero water gives me a consistent base that I can replicate the same formula with time after time, provided I am staying on top of changing the filter. Whilst mixing the zero water with tap water might be an option, it will give me too many variable to work around - so I’m sticking with simplicity until I get my Skuma RO unit.

The TDS meter that came with the Zero jug is very sensitive and I think adequate to determine when you need to change the filters. I have just today changed my first filter. I tested my tap water with the TDS meter and the reading was 282. I tested the drinking water I have in my fridge which I am using a Britta Filter for and the reading was 200. The Zero water is 0 after it has been filtered. I have just made up a 5l batch of water and added the sodium bicarbonate and will do another drop test on the water a bit later.

You have mentioned using 64g per litre in your post, important to note that it is 64 MILLIGRAMS per litre in my formula not 64g which is a huge amount to add to the water.

Rob1

Java_avaJ

Cells B18 - B21 mainly are just there for completeness as the results are used in the calculation for cells b23 and b24. Cells 23 and 24 are the only really important ones, and of those only one of them will be relevant.

They tell you the max hardness you can have at the temperature you’ve set based on the alkalinity in the water. So if your alkalinity is less than 51mg/l cell B23 gives you the max hardness before scale will form at your defined temp and if your alkalinity is over 51mg/l then call B24 gives you the max hardness before scale will form at your defined temp (i.e 125c). If you don’t care about scaling in the service boiler then just use the brew boiler, but it won’t be 93c because there is an offset, not sure what it is but you can view it in PID settings and read it in the manual. Maybe it’s about 105c in the brew boiler so you get 93c at the group.

Your zero water is reading way off what it should be reading. You probably haven’t filtered it properly or maybe they aren’t authentic zero filters.

The cells b18-b21 will be useful if you’re trying to determine if your water is too acidic as it gives you the langelier figures and an idea of the PH without actually reading it. It’s basically to address an issue opposed to scaling which is what the spreadsheet is really designed for.

In a way you can also use cell b23-24 to determine what composition the water will have that you actually brew with because alkalinity and hardness will reduce in equal amounts until scale stops forming….(assuming the alkalinity comes from bicarbonates). The only thing for you to worry about now though is getting the zero water jug to produce zero water, and then decide if you’re going to mix with tap water or remineralise with bicarb.

Java_avaJ

dutchy101 You have mentioned using 64g per litre in your post, important to note that it is 64 MILLIGRAMS per litre in my formula not 64g which is a huge amount to add to the water.

Yes, missing ‘m’ makes all the difference, thanks for the correction

Java_avaJ

Rob1 Your zero water is reading way off what it should be reading. You probably haven’t filtered it properly or maybe they aren’t authentic zero filters.

The Zero Water jug I did buy from Zero Water and I’m using the filter that came with it, though it’s unmarked, it has no name or number on it. I’m not sure how I could be not filtering it correctly, but I’m happy to think I might be doing it wrongly. I’ve screwed the water filter in tight to the upper plastic compartment and then I fill that upper compartment with water, which drips down, through the filter to the main jug below. I then pour it out of the little spout at the top - difficult to see what else I could do.

I must be my measurements using the API kit. I’ll do the tests again and double check my results. Because looking at my notes I used 25ml of water and it 4 drops, which is 71.6 / 5 which is 14.32, not the 32.22 which I said! Then the GH took 5 drops into 25ml which would be 89.5 / 5 = 17.9. But those figures into cells B15 and B16 give huge figues for maximum permissible hardness - are those figures more what you’d expect Rob?

I’m going to do the tests again to be sure - what figures would you be expecting?

Rob1

Java_avaJ Well the zero water jug is supposed to remove anything. I’ve never used one but others have and they’ve commented on it above. Could well be the best it can do is get down to approx 15mg/l for both. I can’t see how it could remove absolutely everything because even RO will leave something behind. You can add sodium bicarb to bring the alkalinity up to 40-50mg/l or mix with tap water to do the same. The ting is with tap water it’ll be inconsistent over time, and adding sodium bicarb to 1l is very difficult to measure right so it’s best to make a concentrate for that….or just add to way more than 1l.