I would really appreciate some help with working out my water analysis and how to best proceed please. I'm completely stuck and feel a right dunce. I've been reading the threads on this forum and on coffeeforum about water and I bought a Zero Water jug and an API GH & KH water testing kit (). I downloaded the water report from my local authority and I downloaded a copy of the Scaling Potential Calculator. Unfortunately I can't make head nor tail of what figures to extract from the water report, how to interpret the GH/KH test kit figures and which figures to put where in the [Water Spreadsheet Calculator](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UoVpIiK-datDqA8zqwvExpQleUcerboDTAH4xBP91hU/edit#gid=997440310 "Water SpreadSheet Calculator"). So I was hoping someone might take a look and help me out. My water authority figures are at With regards to the results I got from the API GH & KH test kit I found that using the Zero Water water I needed 2 drops of the KH test and 2 drops of the GH kit to get the colour change they talk about, which, according to their table says ºdKH is 2 and ppm GH/KH is 35.8 (no idea what ºdKH is). Then using tap water the KH needed 3 drops to change colour which says ºdKH is 3 and ppm GH/KH is 53.7; the GH test needed 5 drops so ºdKH is 5 and ppm GH/KH 89.5. The trouble is I don't know what those figures mean and especially, as is the case with the tap water, there are a different number of drops needed for KH and GH, which column and row is the one I need to look at - this is the manual that comes with the kit: For the past 2 weeks I've simply been avoiding the problem and only using the Zero Water water but the last thing I want is to f\*\*\* up my new ACS Minima with scaling so if anyone has the time and inclination to look at the figures and tell me what I need to put where in the Water Spreadsheet Calculator and then what adjustment, if any, I need to make to the Zero Water I’d really appreciate it. A million thanks

I’ll try to be more specific about what I understand and what I don’t with regards to the water info and the spreadsheet: Looking at the Brewer’s Information on page 2 of the NWL water information I have started to fill out the first page of the Water Spreadsheet and I have: set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4) However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report. Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report Temp I’ve set at 93, and I did a TDS reading of 140 using a meter I bought. Any suggestions where I find the values for those missing cells? I’m still further worried that when I find those missing values I still don’t stand a chance of filling the other pages of the spreadsheet. I’ve looked at the Remineralisation Page example and don’t understand a word, and that’s with me reading it carefully half a dozen times. I think I’ll just go and make a coffee… and put some brandy in it :-)

I have a zero jug and use it with my tap water which is very hard (circa 350 tds). The zero water is literally zero after filtered. I remineralise with 320mg of sodium bicarbonate per 5 litres of zero water to raise the alkalinity

"(no idea what ºdKH is)" One degree German - 17.9ppm, hence 2 drops = 35.8ppm. It's normal for water to have differing amounts of hardness (GH) and alkalinity (KH), the figures can be the same, but shouldn't be expected to be equal. Are you sure the seal around the Zero filter is good, you should be getting 0TDS. No hardness, no alkalinity. Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug).

@"dutchy101"#p11158 I am looking to do the same as an easier water solution, but are you only using bicarb and not magnesium (Epsom salts)?

@"simonc"#p11228 Yes I'm only using sodium bicarbonate based on conversations I had in the bottled water thread.

@"MWJB"#p11176 The figures I've put in the spreadsheet, with hardness etc, are for my tap water, hence the 140 for hardness and the other figures. Should I fill in the spreadsheet again perhaps and put in figures that I have from the API water test?

> @"MWJB"#p11176 Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug) Are you choosing those proportions based on the figures for my tap water that I've put in the spreadsheet (assuming 0TDS from the jug) - or is that a general ratio starting point?

@"Java_avaJ"#p11255 It'll be based on the figures.

@"Java_avaJ"#p11148 You need to increase the resolution of the API water test by using a larger sample. e.g a 20ml sample instead of 5ml will be 4x more accurate and instead of 1 drop of the reagent = approx 17.9ppm it'll be 4.475ppm The test is giving you results in degrees, there'll be a leaflet in there to translate it to ppm which is the same as mg/l. GH is General hardness, KH is alkalinity. Both are expressed "as CaCO3" so when you say you put a figure in the spreadsheet for CaCO3 it's not clear if you put it in there for hardness to alkalinity. Some water reports don't list alkalinity as CaCo3 and they might not even list bicarbonate either. Sometimes there is a more in depth report a few clicks away though. Your test kit will likely give you more current results anyway, just so long as you use it right. Only add drops until the colour changes, don't wait for the colour to change to a "bright" colour that the instructions describe. I use a little espresso cup for a 20ml sample and just stir it continuously while adding a drop at a time. You need to sort out your zero jug because it's not filtering properly.

> @"Java_avaJ"#p11157 set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4) > However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report. > > Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly > C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report In addition to the above point re things being described "as CaCO3" you've probably noticed that the spreadsheet gives you a "Total hardness as CaCO3" figure pretty much equal to the value you stuck into the carbonate cell. You need to remove that because what you've done is add the hardness as CaCO3 to the part of the spreadsheet used to calculate alkalinity if the water report gives you Carbonate or Bicarbonate figures…..

Water help needed please

PartySausage

Hi. In a effort to do a bit of learning about water for brewing & improve my Excel skills at the same time; I’ve been playing around with a spreadsheet that I found on t’interweb. It was in google sheets format so I converted it into Excel, corrected a few formulas & added more of a user interface, which allows you to quickly adjust the mineral compositions to see their effects and create your own recipes as well as using some pre-defined ones.

I take no credit for the technical content that lives behind the front end as that was done by someone with far superior water knowledge than myself. I’ve just tried to present it better.
There are also many more knowledgeable people on this forum that can & do offer invaluable advice & I thought this might help supplement that advice

I thought I’d put it out there in the big wide world for people to have a play with & see if they find it useful. I am under no illusion that there’s probably some foibles in there, so if you have any issues with using it I’ll try my best to sort them

I’ve tried my best to ensure the values that the spreadsheet produces are correct however as a disclaimer I will have to say that this spreadsheet is to be used as a guidance and the validity of any values should be verified. Any water or minerals that you put in your machine and any damage that may result is the responsibility of the user

Brewing Water Calculator

To use it you’ll need MS Excel & you’ll have to enable editing and the active content to make use of the full functionality. If you have any problems let me know.

Enjoy ☺

DavecUK

PartySausage Is there a link?

Rob1

PartySausage

Looks nice but the assertion that “there is no calcium to precipitate scale” is false. Well, not false. There is indeed no Calcium, which is completely necessary for “limescale” to form i.e CaCO3. However, MgCO3 will form instead aka Magnesite, which is just another form of scale.

PartySausage

DavecUK There is now. ;-) I Embedded the link but not the descriptor so nothing displayed doh!

PartySausage

Rob1 Thanks for the feedback. That was something that came from the original spreadsheet & I must admit that it confused me as I didn’t think the only contributory factor in scaling was CaCO3 but it was a topic that I hadn’t fully grasped and as I didn’t really think I knew any better I left it unchallenged. Maybe the original dev’s didn’t consider MgCO3 scale as being detrimental to a machine
I’ll do a bit more digging into MgCO3 scaling & see if I can give a more realistic output when Mg is used in place of Ca

Rob1

Java_avaJ Is doing a concentrate something like: mixing 0.5g to a litre (0.05g x 10) and then adding 100ml of that to a litre of water for use in espresso (1ltr ÷ 10)? My maths can be just atrocious so please correct me and suggest other measures if I’ve got it wrong or other concentrate amounts are better

Yes, it still only leaves you measuring 0.5g so you still need to be quite careful. 0.5g in 1000ml and then 100ml of that into 900ml of zero water to give you 1l total will net about 40mg/l alkalinity assuming your 11mg/l starting point is consistent.

Java_avaJ

Rob1 In an earlier reply you said the water calculator spreadsheet can be used to calculate concentrates, and you mention that my query about adding 0.5g to a litre could need a lot of care, are there proportions you’d suggest are better?

Rob1

Java_avaJ You can try 0.5g and see how accurate it is. Depends on the accuracy of the scales, 0.5g might be just fine. Otherwise you’re looking at either using less per litre e.g 50ml in 950ml or doubling the amount of concentrate to make just so any small inaccuracies with the scales have less of an impact. I’d try the 0.5g first because you don’t want the concentrate sitting around for long (keep it in the fridge).

dutchy101

I’ve just performed my first service boiler drain and I’ve done a 20ml GH test in the water I took out. It took 4 drops to turn the water green which would give me a reading of 71.6 / 4 = 17.9 which I think is good news and the zero water and sodium bicarbonate recipe I’m using is safe.

Is there any point in checking the KK reading from the drained service boiler water too?

Rob1

dutchy101 GH is half the picture, so yes you need KH too. Assuming you’ve heated the water in the service boiler prior to draining it then the readings you get will always show it will either not form scale at your op temp or will be slightly scale forming and without the KH reading to go with GH you have no way of telling if it is there or not.

dutchy101

Cool. I kept 20ml of the water and will do a KH test on that.

The boiler was warmed up to temperature before I drained it.

Next stupid question, will it matter that the water temp has cooled in the 20ml sample I’ve kept to do the KH test?

LMSC

dutchy101 It is not a stupid question. I was about to ask the same 😊

Rob1

dutchy101 No….maybe if it is left standing uncovered but not to sure even about that.

dutchy101

So I’ve done a KH test just now. 18 drops to turn yellow. That seems high and the chart only goes up to 12. The water I was putting in took 10 drops to turn yellow and was therefore just above 40ppm.

The drop level for 6 is half that of 12 on the chart so by adding them together and dividing by 4, I get 80ppm, so the water seems to be getting more alkaline in the boiler.

Is this a problem?

Rob1

dutchy101 Alkalinity and alkaline aren’t the same things.

With an alkalinity of 80mg/l the max hardness you can have before scaling is about 10mg/l at 125c. So you have a bit of room for error in the measurements of about 5mg/l (probably the accuracy of the test?).

If you put the figures into the spreadsheet in my sig along with the temp of your service boiler you’ll have a picture of what is happening.

Likely you’re getting a small amount of scale for every litre of water you get through at this point (and possibly have been for some time?). You need to test the water in the boiler regularly so you can keep track of how saturated it is becoming, or you can figure it out based on how much water is used on average per day when the refill is triggered. Once you know how long it takes to get to this point you can easily care for the machine.

dutchy101

Thanks Rob1 .

I tend to steam milk for 2 single drinks a day (approx 125 ml each time) and I’ll usually also draw a cup of water for a tea for my wife once a day probably about 200ml or so. I have no idea how to calculate how much water I use to steam the milk but it’s typically 200ml or so for the tea. Not sure if it makes much of a difference but the steam boiler is never on for more than about 15 / 20 mins at any time.

Think I’ll test the water from the service boiler a bit more regularly. It’s set to 130 degrees.

Machine is 6 weeks old and I’ve only ever used zero water with 67mg / litre of sodium bicarbonate in the machine.

If I contine getting the same readings consistently, presumably I should lower the amount of sodium bicarbonate I’m adding to the zero water to bring the alkalinity down?

Rob1

dutchy101

The minerals concentrate when you steam milk, you can add less bicarb and have lower alkalinity to start with but it will always rise over time. I fill my service boiler with distilled water (1.7l) and after 5 weeks of steaming about 500ml milk a day it needs flushing out. What is the alkalinity and hardness of the water you’re putting into the machine? I know it’s “zero water” but is it actually giving you 0 GH or is it more like approx5mg/l?

LMSC

dutchy101 typically 200ml or so for the tea.

What you can do is drawing 200 to 250ml after you have steamed — assuming you draw before. Another choice is drawing a small cup every steaming. You may observe your reading with these variations.

LMSC

Rob1 I fill my service boiler with distilled water (1.7l) and after 5 weeks of steaming about

Please forgive my curiosity. How does this work ?

Is it always distilled for the service boiler for every day steaming or just for light descale? If former, how do you top up please ? Because, the supply pitcher will be common for both boilers.

We might replicate it on our service boiler if you are using distilled for the service boiler for daily use. In our case, it will be pure RO. Thx

simonc

Rob1

Rob1 how do you know it needs flushing out?

dutchy101

Just done another test on my water (that I’m feeding the Minima with)

20ml on the GH kit. It says the water should convert from orange to green. It does not turn orange at all and seems to be going green after 2 or 3 drops which would be somewhere between 8.95 and 13.4 but the fact the water doesn’t turn orange at all could suggest it is zero or closer to zero?

KH takes 10 drops to turn yellow which is 44.75 for alkalinity.

Out of interest, I thought I’d also test the water with the TDS reader that came with the Zero water jug. This reads 0 before I add sodium bicarbonate but gave a reading of 42 on the water I’ve added the sodium bicarbonate to.

Rob1

Well it can’t be zero or you wouldn’t have any hardness in the service boiler….the alkalinity has roughly doubled in the service boiler, suggesting if it has just started to scale, or is just about to, hardness must be about 8-9mg/l for your 17.9mg/l reading earlier. Difficult to say if it has been scaling a while and things have just been knocked out of proportion. 17.9mg/l may be an overestimate if the test is only accurate to about 5mg/l.

I don’t understand what you mean by “it doesn’t turn orange at all”? If you’re adding 1 drop to 20ml the colour will obviously be very faint, but if you can see it obviously change from a very slight tint to another tint then that’s the measurement done….but yes if you can’t see a distinct change it could well be it’s below the threshold of the test…..but that doesn’t explain the hardness in the service boiler after 6 weeks of light use (especially when you draw off 200ml a day).

dutchy101

In terms of GH testing, in that case, I think I’m down to one drop for the water I’m putting in - so practically zero.

Think I’ll need to keep an eye on the water being drawn out more closely. I wonder if it could be that the machine needed a bit more flushing before I used it This was the first flush of the service boiler that I performed, but the boilers were flushed when being bench tested by the retailer.

LMSC

dutchy101 but the boilers were flushed when being bench tested by the retailer.

Did they fill the boilers with filtered or tap ?

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