Hi All - I'm new to the forum and hoping I can bit of help with my Niche Zero / Lelit Bianca combo that I have had for a couple of months now. The main issue I'm having is that I feel like I'm getting a fair amount of inconsistency which I think is coming from channeling. I'm confident the issue lies with my own puck prep capability (or lack thereof) rather than the equipment and thought it would be easiest to make a video to demonstrate the issues I'm having: This shot actually tasted ok - not very sour or very bitter, but definite muddiness in the flavour. I can see some evidence of what I think is channelling so really looking to try and improve this so that I can get cleaner and more consistent extractions. In the last 2-3 months I feel like it's gotten a bit better but I'm still really struggling to get rid of channelling which I feel like is happening in the large majority of shots (to varying extents). I did own a Sage Barista Express for a year before this machine and was hoping the upgrade would solve some of the issues I had with that setup. Its almost at the point where I've accepted I need to pay someone from a nearby coffee school to come over and help me troubleshoot but hoping this forum can save me! The shots sometimes taste good but its of course frustrating to not be able to repeat this even if all the settings are the same. As a last ditch attempt...I wanted to see if anyone in the forum could help highlight some obvious mistakes I'm making/areas for improvement. Really appreciate anyone's input on this. I've tried a lot of different things to improve it without much success but some highlights (lowlights?) as follows: * I am pretty confident that some of the issues are all coming from my inability to distribute well. I am hopeful that its not the grinder or machine after the financial outlay! * I bought the distributor tool and continue to use it but don't feel like it makes much difference in limiting channelling issues. More so it gives me a level bed to tamp on which makes it easier for me to get a level tamp each time, which I struggled a bit with initially but feel like I have improved on. * I tried a home made WDT tool for a while but didn't feel there was any noticeable improvement * I reduced the pump pressure to about 8.5-9 bar as machine was set at about 10 bar when it arrived which I have read can make channelling issues worse. * To date, I haven't really tried to use pre-infusion (either by programming it or by using the paddle). The reason for this is that I am really trying to set a repeatable baseline of a good shot. I feel like if I introduce manual pre-infusion then its going to add in more variables and make it even more difficult for me to identify what I'm getting wrong. I am thinking about setting a programmable pre-infusion to try and see if this helps (as that would be repeatable). * I'm trying to distribute the grounds with the least amount of tapping as I found (non-scientifically) that the channelling seemed worse the more I tried to tap to distribute. * I suspect that dosing straight from the cup to the portafilter may be causing issues so perhaps a dosing funnel could help? In the video I shared, to me it looks like coffee comes through more in a ring around the edges which is possibly because using the cup stops the coffee going right to the edges. I am using the provided lelit tamper so I would expect its a distribution rather than tamping issue. I'd be curious to know if anyone who has the Niche/Lelit combo is able to dose straight from the cup and if there's a technique to this I'm missing. Thanks everyone (and apologies for the very long post but thought better to give as much info as possible).

What coffee is it? Try stirring the grinds in the metal cup with a chopstick….then place them in the portafilter. Take the tamper (forget all the other stuff). Tamp like this, not just the 2 fingers you used in one place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id4MdB83d-A&list=PLUPtpdtiNCunCHBHBXe8OyugyySg8V71X Don't tamp too hard, but don't leave voids and adjust grind fineness as required, don't try and control flow with tamping.

From the vid id say you need to go a tad finer on the grind size A wdt and over sized funnel will make all the difference, id ditch the leveller its will do you no real good Is that the stock bianca ims basket? As dave says is it every bean? Or just some.

The thin needle version is what you need

I asked @"NW9"#458 to post here as I thought it would be helpful to hear everyone’s opinion. Personally I often see similar bottomless shots myself with medium and light roasts (Minima and Niche combo). I don’t use a leveller anymore, I attach a magnetic dosing ring to the basket, dose coffee into it from the dosing cup, WDT with 0.4mm needles (0.3mm might be better), tap on mat once and ensure grinds are level before using a self levelling tamper. Often there is no sign of channeling yet significant dead spots occur. @"Rob1"#171 has previously suggested that dead spots may occur due to fines blocking the basket holes. With medium/darker roasts these dead spots may still occur although hidden due to more crema. Or maybe there are fewer dead spots as medium/darker roasts usually require a coarser grind. It’s possible the mazzer burrs produce more fines when the grinder is new and with use/seasoning this will improve? I would be curious to used a different and/or seasoned grinder to see if the bottomless shots differ with the same espresso machine and beans. I agree a slightly finer grind may be beneficial though. @"Rob1"#171 what are your thoughts?

@"HVL87"#p11399 Certainly with all the test grinders o used during the development phase, I kept taking the same set of burrs with me. As I always found them better than brand new burrs. I believe seasoning is important to optimum performance.

Dont forget though, the visuals can only give some much, you have to be driven by taste. Heres a really good visual guide https://youtu.be/m_6oU7fUODg

Some coffee extractions simply look horrible. Try a light roasted Kenyan and you’ll see what I mean. 😊 The coffee tastes superb. In my experience, I find that the darker the coffee, the nicer the extraction looks. But we don’t drink what we see do we? 😉

I’d also recommend trying a funnel. I actually bought a Niche dosing cup for my x54 as I like the curved inner wall design but I’ve gone back to using the funnel and original dosing cup. The inherent issue with dosing cups is that you get all the coffee on one side of the PF when you flip it over. Shaking it and WDT obviously helps distribute from there but I find a funnel gives a better, more even starting point. More like grinding straight into the basket but with less mess. In a pinch, I can skip the WDT dosing this way and still get a decent shot, something I can’t do using the fliparoo method. I bought a magnetic funnel on Amazon and the wider mouth dosing cup with the x54 works really well.

I'm not able to video my prep process but what I do with my Niche and Minima is as follows (by no means correct but maintains consistency shot to shot): 1. With PF on top of cup I give it a shake 2. Flip it over and give it a shake again like cocktail mixing 3. Place over my funnel and then tap the PF while holding the funnel in place (in turn holds the cup in place) to center the grounds so they don't pour over the edge as always seem to build up at one side 4. Remove the cup and tap a bit more to ensure it's even, then a couple of knocks on the tamp mat 5. Place my distributor (same as yours) on top, spin anti-clockwise a few rotations, repeat clockwise with the thought being that anti-clock is moving the grounds with the deeper wedges and then clock smoothing it out. If anything gives a nice flat bed to work with so whether it does anything or not, I'll continue as isn't ruining anything 6. Tamp a medium-ish pressure and couple of twists just for a last polish and to get those last loose grounds included 7. Engage and enjoy whatever comes out 😁 I generally get a decent looking shot which doesn't show any clear channeling so I'm happy but occasionally I do get some slight spraying which I think is expected with a naked. Like that video shared shows, looks aren't everything so the odd shot that isn't smooth as syrup, I still get the same taste which I put down to consistent prep. I have no plans to add WDT to my process, feels long and substantial enough lol. @"HVL87"#57 when I do the shake I get some fines come through the holes so that could be right about the blocking but hoping this is just due to it being fairly new and will bed in over time. I only make 2 - 3 drinks a day and on my 5th 200g bag I think going through the Niche.

Lelit Bianca / Niche Zero - Channeling Issues

Ernie1

Alexvs

I’m confused by the funnel bit. You use a funnel while the cup is fitted into the PF?

I may have read that wrong sorry

Alexvs

Ernie1 Sorry, the funnel is placed on the PF while the cup is upside down in it still so that when I remove the cup, grounds don’t escape over the side. Then also allows me to do any further tapping before I remove it to distribute and tamp.

Alexvs

Easier with a picture.

Ernie1

Alexvs

Ah ok I see what you mean now.

Cuprajake

dont need multiple bangs, wdt and one tap down

Alpesh

My workflow is:

Invert cup into portafilter and shaky shaky
Finger level slightly as it more often than not is lopsided
WDT
Distributor spin spin
Light tamp (aka Dave technique) with fingers but follow with a polish. I use the tamper edge tas a guide to ensure it is level based on how it feels on the fingertips
Hope for the best

Has generally been consistent with the occasional shot that channels.

Cuprajake

Did a quick vid for you.

Gives you the basic idea, 2 hands better than one but you get the jist.

Make sure you follow the description to a tee

Alpesh

Cuprajake If you don’t mind me asking what tamper is that?

HVL87

I think we should all invest in a GoPro and head strap so we can film puck prep, extractions, milk steaming and (attempted) latte art in the first person 😄

hornbyben

Alpesh it’s a “The Force Tamper”, you can buy them from Bella Barista: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-force-tamper-jelly-rose-wood-58-35.html

They look like lovely tampers, but certainly not cheap!

Alpesh

hornbyben Thanks, you’re right there - nearly fell off my chair. Best not tell the Mrs how much it costs…

hornbyben

Alpesh I’ve been pretty pleased with the normcore v4

It’s a similar self-levelling spring pressure tamper, and a lot more affordable. I suspect it’s not as well made as the force, but it’s certainly good enough and leaves nice level tamps.

dutchy101

Another + 1 for the Nomcore here. Very happy with mine

Cuprajake

Yeah the force was a gift, as no way in hell did i think id pay £160 for a tamper lol oh how ive changed 🤣

But for me it offers a repeatability that i cant. Lol

I had the decent v3 before it, there a fortune too with the import tax, sadly the normcore wasnt around when i got the force

hornbyben

Cuprajake at least it looks lovely and is actually useful. You see a lot of fairly expensive coffee gadgets that just end up in draws (ocd tool, porcupress etc)

NW9

Hi All,

Thank you for all the suggestions (was not expecting so many so quickly!). And sorry for the delayed reply but I was away this weekend so only had chance to try some of them out yesterday.

I started by trying the tamping technique Dave suggested and it did seem better on the second shot I tried (although this shot was also fast at around 20 seconds). Perhaps I may have been grinding too coarse (as others suggested) and then overtamping to compensate so will go a bit finer with the revised technique and see how I go.

The beans were the pioneer roast from altitude coffee but I have very little left now. Originally bought 1kg about a month ago (froze half to keep fresh). I have had similar issues (although perhaps not as visually bad) with other beans.

I have a couple of coffees from Monmouth (one medium, one medium-light roast) to try and they’ve been rested about a week now so will be using those from tomorrow onwards.

Will also try to remember that it’s not all about how the shot looks! Although I was also struggling to get consistency of taste between shots which is why I suspected it was me getting something wrong.

Thanks again everyone and will let you know how I get on.

NW9

Hi All

Thanks again for the suggestions.

My summary of the last 2 weeks would be its been a bit 1 step forwards 2 steps back! Initially I thought I’d cracked it as I managed to get better looking shots (not perfect but much improved) that more importantly tasted considerably better than I had been getting.

This was using a medium roast coffee from Monmouth (Monmouth) that I rested for about 7 days before using it and using the tamping technique recommended by Dave (plus a quick stir with a chopstick pre-transfer to portafilter). I also stopped using the leveller tool and switched to pouring into the portafilter (rather than flipping over) and doing my best to level by tapping the side of the portafilter and one bang on the surface at the end to level. So I was hoping the change to technique and/or using a different coffee solved or at least reduced the problem.

Unfortunately, over the last few days I’m struggling again and I’m not entirely sure why. This is leading to shots that are tasting pretty harsh and where it looks like there’s a fair bit of channelling going on. I made 5 shots this morning and couldn’t get rid of the issue despite trying to take care to follow a set procedure (shot time moved around between about 24-28s to get the same yield of around 2:1).

A number of people suggested a magnetic funnel and I’m going to order one of those now. If nothing else it will make it a lot easier to keep coffee in the portafilter when transferring from the dosing cup and levelling by tapping.

I suspect my issue is still with my levelling/tamping technique and I may also try WDT if I’m still having problems after adding the funnel.

Any other suggestions welcome.

I’ve pulled about 200 shots so that’s at least 3.5kg of coffee through the Niche grinder now so I don’t think it should be anything to do with that. I guess the coffee is now approaching 3 weeks from roasting but again I would not expect that is the main problem.

One other thing I’ve noticed is that I’m getting a fair bit of coffee residue on the shower screen after pulling a shot. I’m not sure if this is normal or not? I am weighing 18g in the stock Lelit double basket (16g-18g) so I didn’t think it was an issue of overfilling the basket but thought worth checking. This has been the case with all coffees I’ve tried not just the current one.

Can share another video later if helpful

Rob1

NW9 Unfortunately, over the last few days I’m struggling again and I’m not entirely sure why.

Likely, the coffee has aged. That doesn’t mean it’s bad (assuming it’s stored properly). Shot times vary from one week to the next. Taste can be very different too especially over week 1-3. It may not have settled down yet or you could just need to adjust the grinder to suit. The coffee should be fine for a few more weeks (it doesn’t need to be used before 4 weeks or even 8 weeks)

Stop focusing on how the shot looks.

With a funnel you won’t need to use the dosing cup at all.

NW9 main problem.

One other thing I’ve noticed is that I’m getting a fair bit of coffee residue on the shower screen after pulling a shot. I’m not sure if this is normal or not? I am weighing 18g in the stock Lelit double basket (16g-18g) so I didn’t think it was an issue of overfilling the basket but thought worth checking. This has been the case with all coffees I’ve tried not just the current one.

It’s possible you’re doing too high, do the 5p coin test and see if it leave an imprint when you lock the portafilter in.

NW9 Any other suggestions welcome.

I said in the other response, alter the yield and adjust the grind setting. You don’t achieve anything with a 25-30 second shot time and a 1:2 yield. The lower the yield, the harder it is to get a good extraction as you have to push everything to the max, you’ll need to grind finer and finer, especially with medium and light roasts, and can actually find extraction yield dropping as a result while you end up with excessive solids in the cup. Your shots then vary between silty, bitter and sour with a tiny window for a good shot that still has detectable flaws. You have a conical grinder so take advantage of the increased body compared to a flat, don’t grind too fine, and push yield up to increase clarity and extraction instead of trying to force high EY and low ratio shots that are popular with light/medium roasts and flat burrs that produce coffee naturally lacking in body (hence pusing ratio lower to increase viscosity). You have a paddle on the bianca so it’s a bit more flexible in use.

Rob1

NW9

There doesn’t look to be anything wrong with the shot aside from the early drips around the ring. Could well be using the dosing cup but I don’t remember seeing that when I was using it so it’s probably just that I tapped more to settle the grinds.

Visually the crema didn’t cover the bottom of the basket which is common for some coffee and lighter roasts, it doesn’t mean there’s channeling but it did take a few seconds to come together in the middle and I did see a little spritz so there’s room for improvement. Stirring the coffee in the cup and shaking/tapping to get rid of static may help.

It’s not clear what ratio you’re aiming for, but I did see the shot time of 27 seconds….inconsistent results can be because you’re right on the edge of where a shot is good or bad with little wiggle room. If you increase extraction you can get past this zone to something more user friendly i.e vary between very good and good shots. You can do that by grinding finer (which will increase shot time at the same yield) or increasing ratio, the best option is bean dependent but generally a yield ratio above 1:2 will be easier to work with. It’s also possible you might be better decreasing extraction. Based on how you dialled in you should be able to tell which way to go: tending towards sourness, grind finer, tending towards powdery mouthfeel and bitterness or sourness (or both), grind coarser and if necessary increase yield (or use the paddle).

P.S using the paddle is repeatable.

Emc2

Great discussion! I have stopped trying to get a “good looking” extraction. There doesn’t seem to be any correlation with taste, especially with a VST basket. This is a video of a great tasting shot despite lots of channeling.

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