Hi Everyone, As some of you may or may not know I do not currently own an espresso machine. I am on my way to saving for one, but I have some questions, that hopefully haven't (as far as I have seen) been discussed. So espresso aficionados let me tap that knowledge base and possibly start a bit of a conversation. - Why are makes like ACS, ECM and Lelit discussed more favourably or more often on this forum than others? Other makes include La Marzoco, Faema, La Spaziale, Crem. - Is part of being an espresso machine owner, also accepting having to replace parts and be a bit of DIY man/woman? For instance if someone like me wanted minimal hassle and low maintenance, is an espresso machine a big no no! Bit like being a classic car owner?!? - If you aren't keen or have the time to produce your own water (RO etc) is bottled water the only option to maintain a machine long-term? - Is the promised land "end game" machines, a description of a machine that can do everything well or a description of a machine that does the basics the best? My point being if I just wanted consistency, over lets say vlogging new and weird recipes on a YouTube channel, is spending more money the ideal or not really necessary? - Then finally we take away all your little gadgets and gizmos away and we give you a shiny new machine of your choice, how much do all the necessary accessories cost to get you happy as Larry again making espresso?

1, ecm, lelit, etc are generally alot cheaper than the likes of the la marzocco - so in turn you see more of them, dont confuse cost with qualirty. 2, there are companies that sell machines like bella barista with a 2yr return to base warranty, there are also espresso machine repair shops all over. 3, some bottled waters are good, @"MWJB"#139 and @"Rob1"#171 know water inside out so can advise better than me. 4, spending more money can get consistency, cheaper machines tend to have poorer temp control and that is a key feature, everyone's end game is different, beauty is in the eye of the owner. 5, wdt, funnel and a tamper are all you need, the normcore level tamper £40 is really well built and takes out another variable of making espresso

> @"Frothbewithyou"#p13681 So espresso aficionados let me tap that knowledge base and possibly start a bit of a conversation. > > 1. Why are makes like ACS, ECM and Lelit discussed more favourably or more often on this forum than others? Other makes include La Marzoco, Faema, La Spaziale, Crem. > 2. Is part of being an espresso machine owner, also accepting having to replace parts and be a bit of DIY man/woman? For instance if someone like me wanted minimal hassle and low maintenance, is an espresso machine a big no no! Bit like being a classic car owner?!? > 3. If you aren’t keen or have the time to produce your own water (RO etc) is bottled water the only option to maintain a machine long-term? > 4. Is the promised land “end game” machines, a description of a machine that can do everything well or a description of a machine that does the basics the best? My point being if I just wanted consistency, over lets say vlogging new and weird recipes on a YouTube channel, is spending more money the ideal or not really necessary? > 5. Then finally we take away all your little gadgets and gizmos away and we give you a shiny new machine of your choice, how much do all the necessary accessories cost to get you happy as Larry again making espresso? 1. you can start a discussion about any machine you like, if people own one or have used one, I am sure they will chip in. As for more favourably, that's often down to owner preferences, someone who owns a Gaggia which does all they need, will discuss it favourable, one who wants to upgrade from a Gaggia, perhaps less so, unless they want to sell it. The forum is non-commercial, we have advertisers to upset or worry about…talk about what you want. If I've used/tested a machine, or have knowledge of it, I will chip in. 2. As Jake said, although many maintenance jobs are a lot easier than people think. A prosumer espresso machine will need maintenance though, there are no maintenance free machines. This also includes things akin to checking the tyre pressers and oil, water levels on a car… 3. as above 4. The end game machine is one that makes **you** happy and does everything **you** need. It might be a Gaggia classic, a sage dual boiler, a La Marzocco Linea mini, or slayer etc.. 5. My main prep accessories are an £8 set of scales, a Reg Barber US curve tamper (present from 18 years ago) and a wooden chopstick.

@"DavecUK"#p13686 So to follow up your answers to 1, 2, 4 and 5 1. Maybe this question was worded badly. I am not fearful per say about talking about other machines but from the outside looking in, a lot of people seem to fall into owning those makes and models on here. I enjoy the fact this is free from advertisers so regard that consensus as quite a strong positive for those brands. 2. I think someone new to espresso is happy with that level of maintenance, its when you see people replacing parts I am like "ohhh I don't want to mess about with an X pound machine with my clumsy hands" 4. What if the consumer is like me and the only desire is tasty coffee?! I have only ever owned a Gaggia classic (which I did not use well or with any knowledge like 10+ years ago) or worked in a café with a commercial machine. How do I find my diminishing returns line so to speak? 5. Common sense sort of pointed me that way, I make delicious coffee with an aeropress, scales, prosumer grinder and some plastic nic nacs. Though you see ALOT of devices used and I wondered if these were luxuries rather than necessities. Interesting replies so far.

1. I can't control what people want to talk about or own….Perhaps those makes are giving people what they want and need, at a price they are happy to pay? I wish I was on commission though, I would make a flipping fortune! 3\. I think you need to think hard about the drinks you make, the use scenarios for the machine and an amount of money you are happy to spend, leaving room for the grinder. Size, location and appearance are other important factors. **After that, do you want new or used**? 4\. I can live with just the accessories I mentioned…and do mostly.

On point 1. There is so much choice out there when it comes to espresso machines (just look on Bella Barista for a small selection) that it's difficult to make an informed choice just by watching YouTube videos or reading online reviews. It's nice to have real world users to see their feedback and experiences. I think that is why quite a few people have similar machines, they have bought them based on positive feedback they have read on a forum which they might feel they can trust more than a supposed independent review.

There’s already some great answers so I won’t try to add to the ones above but from a ‘my experience’ angle- 1. I bought a Lelit because for me it’s a good balance of Italian manufacturing from a semi-established manufacturer, relatively simple features and a tried and tested design (E61). An important factor for me when spending nearly £2000 is that I’ll be able to repair/maintain it for many many years to come. I’m risking derailing this thread by calling out specific alternatives but there are other, far more feature rich machines that are from relatively new manufacturers. Whilst there’s every possibility they may be around for another 50 years, I felt more comfortable buying into an established name/design. Had the Bianca not existed I’d have probably saved for a Linea or Faema E61 for the same reasons as above. 2. For me, the maintenance of the machine is part of the joy of ownership. I don’t mind removing parts and greasing cams/joints every couple of months and keeping everything running smooth. But then I do the same with old(ish) American motorcycles so it’s familiar territory. It’s definitely more involved than your typical kitchen appliance but with proper care, ownership should mainly be upkeep rather than repair. As above, though, and exactly like with my bikes, I deliberately avoided machines with a lot of electronics in the hope parts are serviceable/repairable for years to come. 3. This is an area I admittedly haven’t had the inclination to read as much into as I perhaps should. I just use Volvic and nothing else in the hope it’ll be fine. I do intend to get an in-line system when I get round to plumbing the machine in. I’m not super happy about the environmental impact of using bottled water but my partner and I switched to a vegan diet last year so I feel that offsets our carbon footprint a bit 😅. 4. End-game for me meant I wouldn’t need/want any more features in a machine. Manual shot profiling is as advanced as I’ll ever need and oftentimes I don’t even touch the paddle. I don’t single dose espresso and the simplicity of just grinding/tamping/extracting works for me and I thoroughly enjoy the coffee I make at home. I think the process needs to be enjoyable. I love single dosing and hand grinding for filter but my approach to espresso is relatively ‘old-school’ I suppose by todays standards. I don’t freeze beans, I use the hopper on-demand and in a pinch I won’t even WDT. If I ever found myself with £5k lying around I might buy a Linea or Faema but it wouldn’t replace the Bianca, I just love the iconic design of them. It’s so easy to get overwhelmed and consumed by the sheer volume of espresso related content on YouTube. “Tamp like this, WDT that, this ratio, single-dose, freeze your beans, treat your water and steam your milk exactly like this”… it’s easy to think this has been the ‘right’ way to make coffee for years but in the grand scheme of espresso, the third wave is relatively new. Granted a lot of the above has helped improve things, but it’s also complicated it a lot, the only ‘right’ way to do it is to find what works for you and not get too caught up in the rest. I appreciate that’s easier said than done, though.

@"Dusk"#p13690 Absolutely and there is safety in numbers if things go wrong. What I am doing here is drilling down into like the fundamentals of espresso machine buying, what decisions I need to make early on and how risky is it to veer away from the crowd and get a Rocket or a La Marzoco...is there even any benefit and could I be happy with a Rancillo X or Lelit Bianca or ECM puristka etc I have received great advice with the "try loads of coffee" and my grinder purchases so why no lean on these ol' coffee heads some more :D

@"Ernie1"#p13694 Great response and this is providing very much what @"Cuprajake"#144 coffee journey thread did and I can see this being helpful for people not just myself who at a similar point!

My first home espresso machine was a Sage Bambino Plus, purchased about 2 years ago today and during lockdown. I knew absolutely nothing about home espresso or machines at the time and I remember my heart sinking when I saw how much grinders were and how much the grinder of choice being recommended by all and sundry at the time was. (the Niche costing over twice the price of what I paid for the Bambino, lol). I settled with the Sage SGP but it was a bit of an eye opener into the price of gear in this game. I did a lot of reading on forums which gave me a better understanding of the different types of machines and grinders and their pros and cons. Once I got my head around the price of things I started to look at what I could get for a particular budget often reading threads where people asked for recommendations. In the end I opted for the ACS Minima - I absolutely love the look of the machine, plus I needed a small machine to fit where I need it to go - being the smallest dual boiler on the market, it ticked all of the boxes. Having a number of owners on here as well as experts like @"DavecUK"#1 who helped develop it, I can rest assured I have a solid knowledge base to draw on for tips and help if things go wrong (touch wood nothing yet, but having a lot of Youtube videos on the machine by Dave has definitely helped). The fact that the machine is built with easily accessible parts that can be replaced easily if required appealed a lot too. I still have a hell of a lot to learn, but I'm extremely grateful to all of the people who ask questions, reply, help with problems advise on machines, accessories, water queries, beans, techniques etc. I bought my Minima not long after joining this board and a few others have also recently bought one - there is a General Minima Thread where we are discussing the machine and our learning curves with steaming on it etc. and it's been an amazing resource to have - questions you have tend to be picked up and responded to within an hour, just like in all threads on here. There's absolutely no way I'd have taken the plunge on buying a Prosumer machine without this forum to rely on - it's full of knowledgeable people with a lot of experience which gave me a lot of confidence that I could / can cope with the learning curve that comes with owning the machine I do.

@"Frothbewithyou"#157 Here are my thoughts 1. I think like most things the brands that are the most popular are those that strike the right balance of needs vs cost for most people. They’re also influenced by the availability in the region. ACS, ECM and Lelit all have a great reputation. Personally I think La Marzoco and Faema are more suitable for commercial applications. While the Linea mini is a gorgeous machine, it’s a lot of money, and heating up a 3L steam boiler is a bit of a waste if you’re only making a single flat white. My advice would be to work out what your needs are and what compromises you’re willing to make and go from there. 2. I don’t think you need to be a diy fan. There isn’t loads of maintenance and you can just pay for periodic servicing. I think rather it’s just the sort of hobby that is attractive to people who are into that sort of thing. 3. While it’s good practice to use none scaling water, it does depend on your machine. Single boiler dual use (SBDU) machines are much easier to descale. I’m in the Thames Valley (very hard water), and have been using Brita filtered tap water for over a year with no issues. Instead I calculated the descaling potential and descale whenever I think I’ve built up about 5g of scales (roughly every two months). I’m confident in stripping down the machine if required to descale more thoroughly, and when I did the maths I can replace quite a few parts for the cost of the other solutions. If I had a dual boiler though I think I’d be more cautious here. 4. End game machines are a mindset. You can always chase the next best thing. There will always be a more expensive, sexier machine available. It’s human nature to think that if you spend more you’ll get better coffee, but personally I think it’s not true. As long as your machine can maintain temperature and pressure repeatably you’re probably better spending your time on your barista skills and better coffee. I’d rather have a pid controlled SBDU and a spare £4k to spend on really good coffee than a shiny Linea mini on the worktop. If you think you’ll be interested in pressure profiling then I would consider this in advance though, as that might change your machine choice. 5. Gadget wise I’d go for a precision basket (£25), WDT tool (make your own for a few pounds), nice tamper (I like the normcore v4, £45), and a dosing funnel (£10-20). In case it helps the following are what I decided I needed - small form factor that I liked the aesthetics of - easy to work on and modify as my interest grows - easily available parts so that it can be repaired for long lifetime - energy efficient - 58mm for good general compatibility The compromises I was happy with were: - speed of brewing (I’m the only coffee drinker in the house, and coffee drinking guests are usually no more than 4, and I’m not usually in a rush if making that many back to back) In the I felt a Rancilio Silvia was the right machine for me. I liked the look. It’s been basically unchanged for decades. All parts are available. It’s easy to modify. The boiler is 300ml, enough for stability but very efficient as for steaming I’m only heating 300ml of water from 90°C to 120°C, rather than litres of water to similar temperatures. I enjoy a project and have now modified it with full pid control and pressure profiling. I get almost decent espresso control for less than £1k invested. For me this is my end game. I have to wait a minute or so for it to heat up before steaming, but I don’t find this a hassle. It’s not much more time than it takes to clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk.

Espresso machine questions...oOo enticing click me!

LMSC

I have never owned an E61. Based on what I read, machines like Bianca would also require equal amount of cleaning, back flush, lubing after the back flush. Of course, machines like Minima are different. I do think levers like Evo are easy on the maintenance.

Edit :

In summary, please buy what you like. Did you say, you have sorted your water?

Ernie1

Don’t let the popularity of single-dosing sway your purchasing decisions if you’re happy grinding on-demand.

I know my method is sacrilegious in 2022 but I’ve been making espresso at home for like 15 years, lived in East London in the 2000s/10s when the third-wave was taking off. I lived close enough to Square Mile to smell them roasting and got my daily coffee from Ozone when they first opened. I’m no stranger to a decent coffee, but:

I fill the hopper with a weeks worth of beans sometimes, use a spouted PF, Stockfleth the basket (basically using my hand to distribute) and I thoroughly enjoy the coffee I make.

I fully acknowledge the benefits of fresher beans, single-dosing and proper care when distributing but for me they’re diminishing returns.

Again though, it’s what works for you! Some people love more process, some people love Nespresso! The key is finding a method that you enjoy repeating multiple times a day every day so you don’t end up getting frustrated and selling up.

I can say with certainty though (I own one as you know) the x54 is a great espresso grinder if you’re not single dosing and I wouldn’t say you’d need to upgrade that before getting a machine.

Frothbewithyou

Ernie1 Agreed I am not looking to spend extra money on a grinder. I spent a very long time and number of posts picking these two in combination and have them for a number of months they are perfect for me.

I just want to slot in a beautiful espresso machine in this gap and join the next phase of coffee and also coffee up my failed barista days of old with actually knowing what to do :D

Frothbewithyou

Cuprajake Sorry I didn’t mean to confuse you. I am only looking/researching the espresso machine side and I am happy with my grinder setup.

Also please don’t get me wrong cleaning and greasing is like a 30 min job. I just don’t want to mod or repair anything if I don’t 100% have to and would rather pay a professional to do it if that option is available.

So we already have a split with Levers versus E61? (Not sure what that is)

LMSC Do lever machines require to sit in the upright position when not in use?

Also I am in no rush to buy right this second so don’t worry about deals in the here and now. I am a very patient person, who is on a research expedition and am willing to save rather than rebuy long term.

Also the Bianca has been mentioned (again without ruffling any feathers), I appreciate the machine is top draw, aesthetically I prefer other brands design (ECM,ACS minima/vesuvious v10, Rocket, Profitec) and makes in that range (MaraX).

Tell you what though keeping my on-call interesting must have looked at 20+ machines now.

How is getting them to the UK? Is it just an import tax usually? I notice some shops in the UK tend to just do one brand etc.

LMSC

Frothbewithyou

You pay ACS, you get a DHL shipment notification, VAT+Tax demand by DHL, you pay and gets delivered at home.

Frothbewithyou lever machines require to sit in the upright position when not in use?

Frothbewithyou

LMSC Ok so Levers in my kitchen, I have alot of above counter cupboards which the lever would play havoc with and probably aggravate my wife no end.

So lets rule out levers and go more traditional? Whats ACS non levers like or would we move to another brand then?

HVL87 ahh this answers another question I had about pumps so rotaary seems a great shout, I would prefer quieter. I don’t mind paying a premium for finish within reason of course.

See I quite like the Vesuvius V10 look, again I think with me warranty is key and buying from a well respected retailer or seller.

Like a detective series this!

HVL87

As you like the ECM aesthetic I would consider the ECM Synchronika. You are paying a significant premium over the Bianca for the brand and overall quality/finish. Flow profiling would be an additional cost though.

As noise is a consideration I would make sure to buy a machine with a rotary pump. If noise wasn’t a concern the Minima would be great value (as you also like the look of it).

In your shoes I probably wouldn’t buy the Vesuvius or Evo as it seems like you would benefit from a local retailer warranty (2 years at Bella Barista for example). I would always be concerned about damage in transit as well.

CardinalBiggles

HVL87

The stylish Rocket Apartemento for £1,000 started my interest in upgrading my coffee making, but researching it I realised that for not much more money you could improve on the machine quite a lot. And so it went until I got to the ECM Synchronika at double the price!

For me the various “covers off” videos on YouTube for the ECM and its sibling the Profitec 700 convinced me that it had to be ECM. Some of the Italian brands looked like total chaos inside, wires everywhere, exposed electrics too close to water, cheaper components, flimsy build. None of that applies to ECM machines imho. The high quality parts meant that I wasn’t looking for service every five mins, and the logical, neat layout meant that when I eventually did need to do a job on a component I was able to do it myself without paying £300 for a Service, just pay 19p for the part!.

The dual boiler was chosen becuase I wasn’t going to plumb it in, but use bottled water. You can pull coffee and steam milk simultaneously if you wish, but more importantly you don’t have to change water temeprature after your shot to prepare milk for drinks, and then flush water away to cool it again for another shot. With reservoirs of 2L or so it’s much less waste and fuss. My ECM is ever-ready at a rock-steady 94 degrees Brew temp, Service boiler 122 degrees

The other thing that might be a factor is availability of parts and backup. ECM are mainstream, and the advice and help I have had from Bella Barista has been superb. Too many advertisers are coffee shops branching out in a small way, or Grey importers from family connections in Italy, no support, no service. And I definitely found some scammers using ads to get your money with no expectation of ever delivering a product.

Personally, I would’nt buy any machine that Bella Barista don’t stock or can’t get. They are machine focused, not lattes & muffins, and they have a dedicatedservice team who know what they are doing. I’m sure others are out there equally professional, but that’s just my personal view. Sending a machine back to Italy at my own expense is not something I would like to do.

I haven’t regretted stretching to my Synchronika for a minute.

But then I’d always buy Mercedes over Lancia too!! 😁

LMSC

Frothbewithyou Some have managed to keep levers even with the cupboards.

Vesuvius is what I would suggest from ACS. It is a top act and no brainer at that price point.

HVL87

Frothbewithyou See I quite like the Vesuvius V10 look, again I think with me warranty is key and buying from a well respected retailer or seller.

So that would be a purchase directly from ACS and shipped from Italy, I believe with a parts only warranty.

Otherwise the Vesuvius will do everything you need (plus more). I have an ACS Minima myself.

Frothbewithyou

HVL87 How do you find the Minima? Is the V10 a needless upgrade or does it bring some decent useful features to the table? I have read the spec sheet but it doesn’t mean alot to me in real terms.

Ernie1

Is ECM noticeably better quality than Lelit? I do like the aesthetic of ECM but not seen one in person to compare with Lelit.

I must say I couldn’t find a single flaw with the construction of the Bianca. Arrived flawless, and still looks that way after 6 months of daily use.

Frothbewithyou

Ernie1 Its just personal preference for me and I am sure people love the look of lelit, I just love the styling of the ones suggested.

HVL87

Ernie1 I haven’t compared either but Lelit have to save money somewhere. I believe the gauge of steel is thinner for example. I think most would be very happy with the Bianca but the OP doesn’t like the aesthetic. Of course if you’re going to make such a decision it makes sense to see both machines in person if possible. Also Lelit now being owned by Breville may/may not be a consideration for potential new owners.

Frothbewithyou

The Minima Is great but the pump is noisy. The Vesuvius has a quieter gear pump (haven’t heard it in person). The Minima doesn’t have as good a finish as the ECM Sync/Lelit Bianca/ACS Vesuvius (drip tray, plastic knobs, water reservoir, stickers etc.) but it’s very solid where it counts and easier to maintain without a lever (the brew switch is very satisfying). Boilers are large so great for back to back shots and it’s one of the few machines in which the boilers heat up in parallel.

The Vesuvius is a pressure profiling machine - this feature is a significant upgrade. It allows you to set a profile/s which adjusts the pressure over the duration of shot. This is great if you want to try to get the best out of your beans (lighter roasts from example). Whilst you can add flow profiling to an E61 machine (included on the Bianca) where you adjust flow to mimic a reduction in pressure, this process is manual and not necessarily as repeatable as on a pressure profiling machine, which you can set and forget.

My only question on the Vesuvius is how well it tracks a pressure profile e.g. I have seen videos where it overshoots the pressure and takes time to reach the target. Maybe a Vesuvius owner or @DavecUK can comment.

CardinalBiggles

Ernie1

This is a market that is very mature & developed. You get exactly what you pay for.

Pay more, get more. Pay less, get less.

You just have to decide how far along the price continuum you are prepared to go, and what you will trade off for a keener price.

Ernie1

Frothbewithyou

Yeah for sure, tbh I think the ECM looks great too, I’d be happy with either.

I was just curious about build quality, I know ECM have a great reputation but I can’t fault the Lelit build either.

Frothbewithyou

Ernie1 Yeah I’d be interested in the answer. You know the classic questions

Which brand is overcosted and you are paying for the name?
Which brand has/is famed for stellar build quality?

Like I know that Sage is not one for the purists and my Dad owns one and he is the Sage one touch consumer to a tea.

I am just wondering though if its like watches (another hobby of mine) and whether at a certain point its all quality and bespoke parts and its workflow and aesthetics that decides what you buy?!?

DavecUK

HVL87 My only question on the Vesuvius is how well it tracks a pressure profile e.g. I have seen videos where it overshoots the pressure and takes time to reach the target. Maybe a Vesuvius owner or @DavecUK can comment.

It depends on how the PID controlling the pump is set up and the pump acceleration chosen. The manuals is a bit old now and there was a change about 4 years ago where the number of pulses to the induction part of the gear pump was changed by the induction drive manufacturer, so the default of 400, is bit high now and i think values more like 170/200 should be used. It can track the profile quite tightly. The pump acc is what dictates the curve it follows rather than sudden changes in a step wise fashion as it tracks the profile.

Ernie1

The Breville thing is a good point. If I was buying new today I’d go with the ECM.

HVL87

Ernie1 only thing is the ECM Sync is £2379 without flow profiling! Quite a difference vs £1900 on the Bianca with flow profiling included.

Frothbewithyou

HVL87 Ernie1
Thanks @HVL87 I think noise reduction is something I would pay more for so thanks for the heads up.

Your point on seeing these machines in the flesh would be amazing! Is their a UK convention or even a showroom where you can look at a large range of brands and machines?!?

All my aesthetics points are based on website supplied images or YouTube videos and I can completely understand if they are flawed. I have also factored in their recent purchase by a bigger company in why Lelit is not so high on my list of potential brands I would choose.

Also if I don’t narrow it down in some arbitrary way, like looks or something I will never decide and go round and round in circles.

HVL87

I will add that often you don’t know what you want/need until you start using a machine for yourself and understand how it all works. That’s the problem!

HVL87

Frothbewithyou Your point on seeing these machines in the flesh would be amazing! Is their a UK convention or even a showroom where you can look at a large range of brands and machines?!?

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk

Jcheney

Frothbewithyou

Don’t know if you are near London, but the London coffee festival is going on Sunday (tomorrow) and should showcase some different models.

Frothbewithyou

HVL87 6 hour round trip, hmmm seems an amazing showroom might be worth it with such an expensive purchase. I haven’t been on Bella Barista since I bought from them last.

Ernie1 I think Rotary seems my clear choice on that front, so far I have the following ‘wants’

Rotary pump - less noise
E61 or Lever (think I am leaning towards non lever)
insert boiler choice
steam wand
58mm portafilter
Aesthetic - modern, metallic style
start up time on the shorter side, but doesn’t have to be lightning

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