Espresso machine questions...oOo enticing click me!

Frothbewithyou

Hi Everyone,

As some of you may or may not know I do not currently own an espresso machine. I am on my way to saving for one, but I have some questions, that hopefully haven’t (as far as I have seen) been discussed.

So espresso aficionados let me tap that knowledge base and possibly start a bit of a conversation.

Why are makes like ACS, ECM and Lelit discussed more favourably or more often on this forum than others? Other makes include La Marzoco, Faema, La Spaziale, Crem.
Is part of being an espresso machine owner, also accepting having to replace parts and be a bit of DIY man/woman? For instance if someone like me wanted minimal hassle and low maintenance, is an espresso machine a big no no! Bit like being a classic car owner?!?
If you aren’t keen or have the time to produce your own water (RO etc) is bottled water the only option to maintain a machine long-term?
Is the promised land “end game” machines, a description of a machine that can do everything well or a description of a machine that does the basics the best? My point being if I just wanted consistency, over lets say vlogging new and weird recipes on a YouTube channel, is spending more money the ideal or not really necessary?
Then finally we take away all your little gadgets and gizmos away and we give you a shiny new machine of your choice, how much do all the necessary accessories cost to get you happy as Larry again making espresso?

DavecUK

Frothbewithyou So espresso aficionados let me tap that knowledge base and possibly start a bit of a conversation.

Why are makes like ACS, ECM and Lelit discussed more favourably or more often on this forum than others? Other makes include La Marzoco, Faema, La Spaziale, Crem.

Is part of being an espresso machine owner, also accepting having to replace parts and be a bit of DIY man/woman? For instance if someone like me wanted minimal hassle and low maintenance, is an espresso machine a big no no! Bit like being a classic car owner?!?

If you aren’t keen or have the time to produce your own water (RO etc) is bottled water the only option to maintain a machine long-term?

Is the promised land “end game” machines, a description of a machine that can do everything well or a description of a machine that does the basics the best? My point being if I just wanted consistency, over lets say vlogging new and weird recipes on a YouTube channel, is spending more money the ideal or not really necessary?

Then finally we take away all your little gadgets and gizmos away and we give you a shiny new machine of your choice, how much do all the necessary accessories cost to get you happy as Larry again making espresso?

you can start a discussion about any machine you like, if people own one or have used one, I am sure they will chip in. As for more favourably, that’s often down to owner preferences, someone who owns a Gaggia which does all they need, will discuss it favourable, one who wants to upgrade from a Gaggia, perhaps less so, unless they want to sell it. The forum is non-commercial, we have advertisers to upset or worry about…talk about what you want. If I’ve used/tested a machine, or have knowledge of it, I will chip in.
As Jake said, although many maintenance jobs are a lot easier than people think. A prosumer espresso machine will need maintenance though, there are no maintenance free machines. This also includes things akin to checking the tyre pressers and oil, water levels on a car…
as above
The end game machine is one that makes you happy and does everything you need. It might be a Gaggia classic, a sage dual boiler, a La Marzocco Linea mini, or slayer etc..
My main prep accessories are an £8 set of scales, a Reg Barber US curve tamper (present from 18 years ago) and a wooden chopstick.

Cuprajake

1, ecm, lelit, etc are generally alot cheaper than the likes of the la marzocco - so in turn you see more of them, dont confuse cost with qualirty.

2, there are companies that sell machines like bella barista with a 2yr return to base warranty, there are also espresso machine repair shops all over.

3, some bottled waters are good, @MWJB and @Rob1 know water inside out so can advise better than me.

4, spending more money can get consistency, cheaper machines tend to have poorer temp control and that is a key feature, everyone’s end game is different, beauty is in the eye of the owner.

5, wdt, funnel and a tamper are all you need, the normcore level tamper £40 is really well built and takes out another variable of making espresso

Frothbewithyou

DavecUK

So to follow up your answers to 1, 2, 4 and 5

Maybe this question was worded badly. I am not fearful per say about talking about other machines but from the outside looking in, a lot of people seem to fall into owning those makes and models on here. I enjoy the fact this is free from advertisers so regard that consensus as quite a strong positive for those brands.
I think someone new to espresso is happy with that level of maintenance, its when you see people replacing parts I am like “ohhh I don’t want to mess about with an X pound machine with my clumsy hands”
What if the consumer is like me and the only desire is tasty coffee?! I have only ever owned a Gaggia classic (which I did not use well or with any knowledge like 10+ years ago) or worked in a café with a commercial machine. How do I find my diminishing returns line so to speak?
Common sense sort of pointed me that way, I make delicious coffee with an aeropress, scales, prosumer grinder and some plastic nic nacs. Though you see ALOT of devices used and I wondered if these were luxuries rather than necessities.

Interesting replies so far.

DavecUK

I can’t control what people want to talk about or own….Perhaps those makes are giving people what they want and need, at a price they are happy to pay? I wish I was on commission though, I would make a flipping fortune!
3. I think you need to think hard about the drinks you make, the use scenarios for the machine and an amount of money you are happy to spend, leaving room for the grinder. Size, location and appearance are other important factors. After that, do you want new or used?
4. I can live with just the accessories I mentioned…and do mostly.

Dusk

On point 1. There is so much choice out there when it comes to espresso machines (just look on Bella Barista for a small selection) that it’s difficult to make an informed choice just by watching YouTube videos or reading online reviews. It’s nice to have real world users to see their feedback and experiences. I think that is why quite a few people have similar machines, they have bought them based on positive feedback they have read on a forum which they might feel they can trust more than a supposed independent review.

Frothbewithyou

Dusk Absolutely and there is safety in numbers if things go wrong.

What I am doing here is drilling down into like the fundamentals of espresso machine buying, what decisions I need to make early on and how risky is it to veer away from the crowd and get a Rocket or a La Marzoco…is there even any benefit and could I be happy with a Rancillo X or Lelit Bianca or ECM puristka etc

I have received great advice with the “try loads of coffee” and my grinder purchases so why no lean on these ol’ coffee heads some more :D

Ernie1

There’s already some great answers so I won’t try to add to the ones above but from a ‘my experience’ angle-

I bought a Lelit because for me it’s a good balance of Italian manufacturing from a semi-established manufacturer, relatively simple features and a tried and tested design (E61). An important factor for me when spending nearly £2000 is that I’ll be able to repair/maintain it for many many years to come. I’m risking derailing this thread by calling out specific alternatives but there are other, far more feature rich machines that are from relatively new manufacturers. Whilst there’s every possibility they may be around for another 50 years, I felt more comfortable buying into an established name/design.

Had the Bianca not existed I’d have probably saved for a Linea or Faema E61 for the same reasons as above.

For me, the maintenance of the machine is part of the joy of ownership. I don’t mind removing parts and greasing cams/joints every couple of months and keeping everything running smooth. But then I do the same with old(ish) American motorcycles so it’s familiar territory. It’s definitely more involved than your typical kitchen appliance but with proper care, ownership should mainly be upkeep rather than repair. As above, though, and exactly like with my bikes, I deliberately avoided machines with a lot of electronics in the hope parts are serviceable/repairable for years to come.
This is an area I admittedly haven’t had the inclination to read as much into as I perhaps should. I just use Volvic and nothing else in the hope it’ll be fine. I do intend to get an in-line system when I get round to plumbing the machine in. I’m not super happy about the environmental impact of using bottled water but my partner and I switched to a vegan diet last year so I feel that offsets our carbon footprint a bit 😅.
End-game for me meant I wouldn’t need/want any more features in a machine. Manual shot profiling is as advanced as I’ll ever need and oftentimes I don’t even touch the paddle. I don’t single dose espresso and the simplicity of just grinding/tamping/extracting works for me and I thoroughly enjoy the coffee I make at home.

I think the process needs to be enjoyable. I love single dosing and hand grinding for filter but my approach to espresso is relatively ‘old-school’ I suppose by todays standards. I don’t freeze beans, I use the hopper on-demand and in a pinch I won’t even WDT.

If I ever found myself with £5k lying around I might buy a Linea or Faema but it wouldn’t replace the Bianca, I just love the iconic design of them.

It’s so easy to get overwhelmed and consumed by the sheer volume of espresso related content on YouTube. “Tamp like this, WDT that, this ratio, single-dose, freeze your beans, treat your water and steam your milk exactly like this”… it’s easy to think this has been the ‘right’ way to make coffee for years but in the grand scheme of espresso, the third wave is relatively new.

Granted a lot of the above has helped improve things, but it’s also complicated it a lot, the only ‘right’ way to do it is to find what works for you and not get too caught up in the rest. I appreciate that’s easier said than done, though.

Frothbewithyou

Ernie1 Great response and this is providing very much what @Cuprajake coffee journey thread did and I can see this being helpful for people not just myself who at a similar point!

dutchy101

My first home espresso machine was a Sage Bambino Plus, purchased about 2 years ago today and during lockdown. I knew absolutely nothing about home espresso or machines at the time and I remember my heart sinking when I saw how much grinders were and how much the grinder of choice being recommended by all and sundry at the time was. (the Niche costing over twice the price of what I paid for the Bambino, lol). I settled with the Sage SGP but it was a bit of an eye opener into the price of gear in this game.

I did a lot of reading on forums which gave me a better understanding of the different types of machines and grinders and their pros and cons. Once I got my head around the price of things I started to look at what I could get for a particular budget often reading threads where people asked for recommendations. In the end I opted for the ACS Minima - I absolutely love the look of the machine, plus I needed a small machine to fit where I need it to go - being the smallest dual boiler on the market, it ticked all of the boxes. Having a number of owners on here as well as experts like @DavecUK who helped develop it, I can rest assured I have a solid knowledge base to draw on for tips and help if things go wrong (touch wood nothing yet, but having a lot of Youtube videos on the machine by Dave has definitely helped). The fact that the machine is built with easily accessible parts that can be replaced easily if required appealed a lot too.

I still have a hell of a lot to learn, but I’m extremely grateful to all of the people who ask questions, reply, help with problems advise on machines, accessories, water queries, beans, techniques etc. I bought my Minima not long after joining this board and a few others have also recently bought one - there is a General Minima Thread where we are discussing the machine and our learning curves with steaming on it etc. and it’s been an amazing resource to have - questions you have tend to be picked up and responded to within an hour, just like in all threads on here.

There’s absolutely no way I’d have taken the plunge on buying a Prosumer machine without this forum to rely on - it’s full of knowledgeable people with a lot of experience which gave me a lot of confidence that I could / can cope with the learning curve that comes with owning the machine I do.

hornbyben

@Frothbewithyou

Here are my thoughts

I think like most things the brands that are the most popular are those that strike the right balance of needs vs cost for most people. They’re also influenced by the availability in the region. ACS, ECM and Lelit all have a great reputation. Personally I think La Marzoco and Faema are more suitable for commercial applications. While the Linea mini is a gorgeous machine, it’s a lot of money, and heating up a 3L steam boiler is a bit of a waste if you’re only making a single flat white. My advice would be to work out what your needs are and what compromises you’re willing to make and go from there.
I don’t think you need to be a diy fan. There isn’t loads of maintenance and you can just pay for periodic servicing. I think rather it’s just the sort of hobby that is attractive to people who are into that sort of thing.
While it’s good practice to use none scaling water, it does depend on your machine. Single boiler dual use (SBDU) machines are much easier to descale. I’m in the Thames Valley (very hard water), and have been using Brita filtered tap water for over a year with no issues. Instead I calculated the descaling potential and descale whenever I think I’ve built up about 5g of scales (roughly every two months). I’m confident in stripping down the machine if required to descale more thoroughly, and when I did the maths I can replace quite a few parts for the cost of the other solutions. If I had a dual boiler though I think I’d be more cautious here.
End game machines are a mindset. You can always chase the next best thing. There will always be a more expensive, sexier machine available. It’s human nature to think that if you spend more you’ll get better coffee, but personally I think it’s not true. As long as your machine can maintain temperature and pressure repeatably you’re probably better spending your time on your barista skills and better coffee. I’d rather have a pid controlled SBDU and a spare £4k to spend on really good coffee than a shiny Linea mini on the worktop. If you think you’ll be interested in pressure profiling then I would consider this in advance though, as that might change your machine choice.
Gadget wise I’d go for a precision basket (£25), WDT tool (make your own for a few pounds), nice tamper (I like the normcore v4, £45), and a dosing funnel (£10-20).

In case it helps the following are what I decided I needed

small form factor that I liked the aesthetics of
easy to work on and modify as my interest grows
easily available parts so that it can be repaired for long lifetime
energy efficient
58mm for good general compatibility

The compromises I was happy with were:

speed of brewing (I’m the only coffee drinker in the house, and coffee drinking guests are usually no more than 4, and I’m not usually in a rush if making that many back to back)

In the I felt a Rancilio Silvia was the right machine for me. I liked the look. It’s been basically unchanged for decades. All parts are available. It’s easy to modify. The boiler is 300ml, enough for stability but very efficient as for steaming I’m only heating 300ml of water from 90°C to 120°C, rather than litres of water to similar temperatures. I enjoy a project and have now modified it with full pid control and pressure profiling. I get almost decent espresso control for less than £1k invested. For me this is my end game. I have to wait a minute or so for it to heat up before steaming, but I don’t find this a hassle. It’s not much more time than it takes to clean the portafilter and weigh out the milk.

dndrich

There are many ways to go here. I second the notion that a machine that can maintain temperature well and is simple to use makes sense. It turns out the grinder is critical also.

I started with a Breville Barista Express at the beginning of the pandemic with no knowledge at all. We drink like two flat whites a day, so with that machine with the lower price, small form factor, easy maintenance, built in grinder, I learned how to become a home barista. It also worked for my wife. So, consider an entry level machine like that until you figure things out. You can always sell it. After 2 years of using it, I found the consistency was just not there based on the grinder and the temperature. The machine was otherwise a joy to work with and live with. Really nice entry level machine frankly for what it is. So, armed with knowledge of how to make coffee and steam milk, I went for a Niche Zero grinder and a Lelit Elizabeth dual boiler machine. The cost of those are close to 4 times what I paid for the Barista Express, but still much cheaper than many setups you will see here. This is a setup I will never need to upgrade. Just fantastic.

If I did it over again during the learning phase I think perhaps a Gaggia Classic and a Barratza Sette 270 would be a fairly economical choice to figure things out. With those two you will have nice espresso grinding, much better than the built in on the Express, for a good price. And the Gaggia will make a perfectly good espresso with a properly ground shot from the Sette. The milk steaming will be slow, but perfectly adequate. And, these machines will be easy to live with and maintain with minimal fuss. If you find that you just love it, and want something faster or dual boiler, you can always upgrade.

Really the key is a good grind and a machine that can maintain temperature well. That will make coffee as good as any high end machine for most people.

Frothbewithyou

Good information @dndrich @hornbyben. I have already laid the groundwork with this forum and the last and have the grinders and brew equpment. I’m currently expecting #16 #17 #18 of the next roastery deliveries this week so that is going well too!

Funny thing is, I have used commercial machines, but back then I was like one of those Barista’s you probably avoided and did it for a cushdy job rather than a true passion. Now the roles reversed.

What I’m struggling with is the topics like boiler types, E61s, portafilter sizes, profiling, paddles, levers Vs other machines? Sometimes I walk into a thread and it’s like walking into a pub in a strange part of the world. Everyone is talking and you are trying to blend in haha!

I’ve watched videos and read threads, but I think there is an assumption of a base knowledge. Also no one wants to be the guy/gal to disrupt a thread and be like ’Excuse me Tim could explain everything you’ve said like a 5 year old’

My knowledge is all brewing techniques, recipes, ratios and a few transferrable skills with grind size, prep etc.

Not what pre infusion time you have, after your back flush with a pid controlled vibration pump, dual boiler and don’t get me started on HGX (I don’t know what I’m talking about).

Don’t get me wrong I’ve learned a tonne in the last 6 months and consistently drink amazing coffee down to @MWJB @DavecUK @LMSC and more to name a few.

Just what does a person who drinks 3-4 brews daily without milk (so espressos, long blacks etc), loves coffee and has friends and family who like a latte or cappuccino buy?

I am waffling, Let me give you a too long didn’t read synopsis for the scrollers out there.

It’s confusing out there and I have verbal diarrhoea.

hornbyben

There’s no right answer unfortunately. Here are some questions that might help start to point you in the right direction (borrowed from Espresso Aficionados discord thread):

What is your budget? What grinder do you already have?
How much involvement can you handle?
a. As fast as possible?
b. I can tolerate faff, temperature surfing and manual grinding don’t scare me.
c. Somewhere in between, elaborate please.
Are you okay with buying used? What level of DIY are you comfortable with?
Milk drinks or straight shots, or are both a priority, and how many do you need to pull in a row?
What kind of espresso shots do you want to achieve?
a. I want traditional shots, full of chocolate, a perfect blend of bitter and sweet (mostly medium-dark to dark roasts)
b. I just want sweet chocolate and some fruits (mostly mediums)
c. Just give me something sweet, vibrant, and fruity (mostly light and even Nordic roasts)
Do you anticipate getting into nerdy things such as profiling? (fine tuning extraction to find different flavors/textures)
What are your priorities regarding noise, aesthetics, and size?

hornbyben

If you’re not in a rush I’d consider the Argos by Odyssey Espresso (https://www.odysseyespresso.com/argos-lever-espresso-machine).

Given it should be released towards the end of this month I’d wait for some reviews, but it looks very promising.

It has the following features:

PID controlled for temp stability
spring lever or direct lever
- most people with profiling machines seem to settle on a lever type profile (a bit of pre-infusion, ramp quickly to max pressure and then decline in pressure as the shot proceeds)
- direct lever means you can set the pressure by how hard you pull, allowing manual profiling
58mm portafilter for good compatibility of aftermarket accessories
small footprint in the kitchen
looks gorgeous (in my opinion)
should be easy to descale, so water quality is probably less of a concern
quick warm up (about 5 mins)

The downside is you can’t do loads of back to back drinks without refilling and waiting for it to heat up again. The website claims 6 shots with steaming.

LMSC

@Frothbewithyou Lovely post, which has already received good responses. You have got a lot of information to process and digest. Just to confirm:

Could you outline what your current set up is - machine, grinder, etc

I won’t add anything except these two:

Many gradually build. They are richer by experience and can understand what did an upgrade bring to the table, which is the best way to learn, IMO. A great example is Jake’s journey
Jump straight to what’s best an outlay can buy. I almost belong to this category. There are two exceptions though. We are primarily the brewed coffee family — mostly Indian filter and have had cheaper machines mostly £100, which never produced anything drinkable.

We went straight to Evo after spending months moving the goal post from Gaggia to Minima and Evo. I read and followed the Evo and I knew this is what we wanted at home. The risks are steeper learning curve, missing the experience of a gradual build and getting overwhelmed. These did not bother me; and, these may or may not as far as you are concerned.

So, think, take your time and choose well.

Frothbewithyou

Cuprajake LMSC @hornbyben

Why don’t I fill out the discord guide for you as I didn’t know that was a thing until just before.
I will add this is why I love this forum because it started out as a general discussion but you’ve all jumped to help find my “ideal” machine which I think indicates this community well to lurkers reading in the background.

So current setup
Grinders
Commandante C40 with red clix upgrade available, I enjoy hand grinding and do it a pour over a day with it
Mahlkonig X54 - usually put my choice of bean for the next two weeks into the hopper for aeropress recipes I will dial in accordingly and for me personally its great with my workflow. I know its strange being a non Niche owner :D #hopperman #hopperslivesmatter

What is your budget?
This I am fortunate with and if I see a benefit I will go as high as needs be within diminishing returns. I don’t want to waste money for the sake of it for a feature I won’t use but if X is the best for me then I will save for X. This is a marathon not a race for me and I am in a very good place coffee wise at the moment.

How much involvement can you handle?
No modding its not my jam, I don’t really want to repair an old machine either. Coffee prep faff I am fine with and mechanisms I am fine with I even looked at the flair pro because the ergonomics and form were kind of cool.
I’d like a coffee before I go to the hospital haha so if it can set up within 30mins of me getting up great. If it can always be on even better or standby. Back to back shots I would expect maximum with guests 4-6.

Are you okay with buying used? What level of DIY are you comfortable with?
No DIY and as for used, instead of being wordy I am going to be simple and say no. I just don’t have the time or skill

Milk drinks or straight shots, or are both a priority, and how many do you need to pull in a row? Straight shots 80% of the time and Milk shots for wife and friends and the odd time I fancy one.

What kind of espresso shots do you want to achieve?
a. I want traditional shots, full of chocolate, a perfect blend of bitter and sweet (mostly medium-dark to dark roasts)
b. I just want sweet chocolate and some fruits (mostly mediums)
c. Just give me something sweet, vibrant, and fruity (mostly light and even Nordic roasts)

So I am starting to learn I like low acidic pour overs more than heavily “bright and floral” ones. Thing is their is part of me though that wants to answer all of them haha but I would say a and b.

Do you anticipate getting into nerdy things such as profiling? (fine tuning extraction to find different flavors/textures)
I am more of a person who will dial in until I hit a wow with a coffee and then persist until the bag is empty. This is my level of experimenting. I do try my current purchases through 4-6 (depending on bag size) brew methods….does that class me as a nerd?!?

What are your priorities regarding noise, aesthetics, and size?
Ok so here comes the bit where you alienate some fans of machines haha, I don’t like the look of Gaggia and Rancillo classic machines the boxy tanks, I have owned the former and it was an eye sore to me (I threw it out as a dumb student don’t judge).
Love metals and clean non-cluttered design, let me give you some examples to get an idea - Rocket Espresso R Cinquento, Linea Mini, Sanremo Cube, ECM design as a whole.
Noise I would prefer it not to shake the foundations and make the wife kill me, quieter would be better. Unless I can purposely make it loud to drown out a whinge?
Size I have a space in the kitchen ready and its quite big so I don’t think I am necessarily needing a compact machine. I think I just want to easily get to the bits I need.

@hornbyben I do like that Argos that is very nice. Reminds me of a higher standard of Flair.

Cuprajake

May have missed it, but whats your budget, for everything, grinder, machine, water, bits

Pointless talking about 3k machines if your under a grand budget.

Once we know this, you can then set the stall out.

For me the bianca is the best sub 2k machine.

LMSC

Frothbewithyou Vesuvius or Evo. Bianca is also a good shout. I would ask @Paolo_Cortese if he is still doing the Vesuvius deal for £1600. I don’t remember what the deal was.

You may live with your hand grinder for espresso. I have a JX pro. I don’t regret it, although I may get a single dose electric some time in the future.

Frothbewithyou

Cuprajake Sorry I didn’t mean to confuse you. I am only looking/researching the espresso machine side and I am happy with my grinder setup.

Also please don’t get me wrong cleaning and greasing is like a 30 min job. I just don’t want to mod or repair anything if I don’t 100% have to and would rather pay a professional to do it if that option is available.

So we already have a split with Levers versus E61? (Not sure what that is)

LMSC Do lever machines require to sit in the upright position when not in use?

Also I am in no rush to buy right this second so don’t worry about deals in the here and now. I am a very patient person, who is on a research expedition and am willing to save rather than rebuy long term.

Also the Bianca has been mentioned (again without ruffling any feathers), I appreciate the machine is top draw, aesthetically I prefer other brands design (ECM,ACS minima/vesuvious v10, Rocket, Profitec) and makes in that range (MaraX).

Tell you what though keeping my on-call interesting must have looked at 20+ machines now.

How is getting them to the UK? Is it just an import tax usually? I notice some shops in the UK tend to just do one brand etc.

Cuprajake

i know you say no to used, but this would be classed as an end game grinder

https://market.unitedbaristas.com/market/coffee-equipment/coffee-making-equipment/grinders/weber-eg-1-electric-coffee-single-dose-grinder/

grinders is a really tricky subject, a lot are really happy with the niche, im very happy with my mazzer, its really hard to say as most will recommend what they own, and most will have zero experience with a £3000 grinder too.

if you want out the box reliability as i said you cant go wrong with the bianca, similir can be said of say an ecm or profitec, people will say the lever, but if you dont want to be hands on id say read the owners thread and decide if that a level of work you want to put in, regardless your going to have to grease and clean something lol.