V60

HarveyMushman

That lime Kenyan sounds right up my street, just ordered some, thanks for the recommendation!

Zephyp

MWJB Thanks. If I wanted to try something coarser at some point, is there a limit to how slow you can go before some other, unwanted effect comes into play? 30g/35-40s, or a combination with more pours/less per pour.

If you get better results with them, it’s worth an attempt. If I end up with some other paper at one point, I can always use the Rombouts for the Moccamaster.

Why do you want to avoid dependence on Hario/similar papers?

I got a few dozen of the old papers left. When I settle on a grind with the Rombouts I can always brew a few cups with the old papers to compare, but I don’t know if that grind and recipe was perfect either (likely not).

MWJB

Zephyp Thanks. If I wanted to try something coarser at some point, is there a limit to how slow you can go before some other, unwanted effect comes into play? 30g/35-40s, or a combination with more pours/less per pour.

At some point the number of pours will cause too much agitation, brews will get muddy/silty, grinding coarser to compensate will result in a noticeable drop in extraction, that can’t be corrected. 20g every 20s (10s pours) works in a direct pour brew…never needed to go that far with a Drip Assist brew (25g/30s has been as far as I have gone).

Zephyp Why do you want to avoid dependence on Hario/similar papers?

With Hario specifically, they have changed paper surreptitiously over the few years they have been in the pour over game, we as consumers have no control over what we get in the next pack of papers. One day all your brews are poor, then you look at the paper…and you see why.

Here’s Matt Perger being caught out in 2015…there have been 2 further changes since this…

MWJB

Zephyp 30g/35-40s

With regard to 35s intervals specifically, I don’t think this would be easy to do in a live brew, 0s. 35, 1:10, 1:45, 2:10, 2:45, 3:10…possible, but I’d need to have a written guide to do it (like Hoffmann’s new 1 cup method). Hence why I like more intuitive intervals like 15s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 45s, 60s (the larger intervals more for larger brews/multiple cups brewed simultaneously).

For me, whatever you do needs to be easy to commit to memory.

Zephyp

MWJB With Hario specifically, they have changed paper surreptitiously over the few years they have been in the pour over game, we as consumers have no control over what we get in the next pack of papers. One day all your brews are poor, then you look at the paper…and you see why.

Other, larger paper producers don’t change it up as much I take it?

In the years I’ve been using V60, it’s changed at least twice IIRC. First to the tabbed version, then this new in green. Additionally, they’ve had multiple different papers on the market simultaneously. There were the loose plastic bags, the wrapped plastic and the boxed version (maybe two different boxes?). All with a little different properties. Once you knew this, had a recipe that worked for one type of paper and only bought that, it worked until they changed that type again.

Reducing it to only one type is a step forward I suppose. Too bad they changed it again when doing so.

MWJB

Zephyp Other, larger paper producers don’t change it up as much I take it?

I don’t know for sure, I guess I’ll find out :-) Moccamaster have been in the game about 60yrs?

Zephyp First to the tabbed version, then this new in green. Additionally, they’ve had multiple different papers on the market simultaneously. There were the loose plastic bags, the wrapped plastic and the boxed version (maybe two different boxes?).

I have received 2 different papers in the boxes. Heavy crepe no tab & smooth inner/medium outer (latest version) tabbed. Also 2 different versions in the loose, pink & black Japan bags (med crepe & smooth inner, both tabbed).

Ordering from my home delivery grocer, I also received boxes stuffed with papers without a plastic wrapper in the box…my suspicion being they put whatever they had in the boxes to fulfill the order.

I’ll be trying some Project Waterfall papers soon, Hario UK have said they are keeping these in circulation and they are the only non-Japanese papers that they offer (Dutch). These are pricey direct from Hario and not seemingly available on their Amazon UK store?

They can do what they want, it’s just odd that they do it so quietly….none of the vendors I bought from were aware of the change and only thought there was tabbed vs no tab in white.

MWJB

Zephyp Was today’s brew 4:03 and 19.23% definitely the El Sal?

LMSC

MWJB Project Waterfall papers soon

Looking forward to your testing reviews. We all appreciate your valuable recommendations.

I have now completely ran out of the original Hario filter papers. I will have to use the Kinto Cotton V60 2 cups paper from Ueshima.

I was wondering if you have a view of the Sibarist versions (fast, B3 and Hybrid). They are so expensive. 😊

Thx

MWJB

LMSC I was wondering if you have a view of the Sibarist versions (fast, B3 and Hybrid). They are so expensive. 😊

They’re too expensive for me, around 55p a cup? I pay about £7/100g for coffee, another £3.85 for filters to make that coffee puts them out of the running.

LMSC

MWJB The 100 bag sells for £35-£39. Even in this case, we are looking at £10/100g. It’s way too expensive for me as well.

Zephyp

MWJB Yep, 100%. Only a few grams left in the bag for a blend now, but I think I’ll grab another from the freezer. The alternatives are all Kenyan and I like having two different styles out at the same time. Also helps with the process. I thought it came out high on the EY (19.23%), but saw that I had one at 18.74% a few days ago.

What deviation should I expect from the same beans using the same method over 5-10 brews? Not a particularly large sample size of course.

Or, at what point does it deviate enough to suspect a fault in the measurement process? The technique and method for brewing is as identical as I can get it.

MWJB

Zephyp What deviation should I expect from the same beans using the same method over 5-10 brews? Not a particularly large sample size of course.

I wouldn’t try to set a limit, if cups are comparable good and you’re doing everything as identically as possible. Just seemed quite a bit higher in EY & shorter in time than the others (but I don’t pay much attention to time).

Regarding the Kenyan, how would you describe the sourness? Clean & tangy like unripe fruit, or muddy/pithy like citrus peel?

Zephyp

MWJB I wouldn’t try to set a limit, if cups are comparable good and you’re doing everything as identically as possible. Just seemed quite a bit higher in EY & shorter in time than the others (but I don’t pay much attention to time).

EY is a bit here and there, but is 7-11 seconds shorter significant?

MWJB Regarding the Kenyan, how would you describe the sourness? Clean & tangy like unripe fruit, or muddy/pithy like citrus peel?

This is the kind of descriptors I need more of. I’ll keep the question in mind the next brews, but from memory I would probably say the latter. I think pith is one of the more common ways I would describe my brews.

The El Salvador has been pretty consistent tastewise at the same setting, while the Kenyan has two different versions, as you can tell from the sheet.

MWJB

Zephyp EY is a bit here and there, but is 7-11 seconds shorter significant?

Not in terms of extraction, or preference from your figures. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Zephyp This is the kind of descriptors I need more of. I’ll keep the question in mind the next brews, but from memory I would probably say the latter. I think pith is one of the more common ways I would describe my brews.

I’d try doing everything the same with the Kenyan, but make the last pour 20g, rather than 30g, for 200g total. See if this helps?

Zephyp

MWJB I’d try doing everything the same with the Kenyan, but make the last pour 20g, rather than 30g, for 200g total. See if this helps?

Will do. What prompted this suggestion based on my feedback and what is the desired outcome from the point of view of the cup? I assume a better tasting cup is the goal, but it’s interesting to know what you want to achieve in the cup.

If less solubles are extraced towards the end, will this result in a higher TDS and lower EY?

What is your opinion of a coffee compass like this?

Small side note.

I just finished the last remains of beans from Hoffmann’s decaf project. I’ve had variable results, but this was probably the best cup I’ve made with any of the beans. I had 6-7 grams of each decaf method left, so I blended them into one cup. Sometimes we strike lucky.

MWJB

Zephyp Will do. What prompted this suggestion based on my feedback and what is the desired outcome from the point of view of the cup? I assume a better tasting cup is the goal, but it’s interesting to know what you want to achieve in the cup.

If less solubles are extraced towards the end, will this result in a higher TDS and lower EY?

What is your opinion of a coffee compass like this?

It’s not really based on a specific target of solubles, just a suspicion that you may be borderline fine and it’s showing up more with the Kenyan. So, less total brew water will pull back extraction, maybe 0.5 to 1%, but also the lower amount of water through the bed, at brew end, will clean up the cup a tad.

Yeah, maybe averaging 0.05%TDS more. Not enough to make a big difference.

Too many words in the chart, too busy, the use of brew time to steer brews is a bad idea. It’s too variable, pour time is what drives extraction (against grind size).

MWJB

The Project Waterfall papers are the “V60” embossed Dutch papers. I can’t be sure but suspect I used to get these in the pink & black boxes (no cellophane around the papers) from Ocado.

First brew today, Switch & Drip Assist, pour over (no steep phase), 12%400Kruve, 40g/40s to 200g total, 2 pours centre, 3 in the ring - as good a result as I have had with this coffee.

Hario UK are showing “4193 in stock” for the x100 packs. A bit pricey at £8.00 plus shipping.

LMSC

MWJB What would be your subjective score please ? Thx

MWJB

LMSC For this coffee (Dark Woods, Brumas Del Zirqui, Costa Rica) 7/9. That’s as much as I have given any brew with this bean.

Zephyp

Using the Rombouts from UK instead of Hario bought in Norway (at a discount) cost me 11.5% more per cup. The V60 filters are 01 size, so there is more paper per filter in the Rombouts. The filters cost 2.5x more. The Hario filters represent 8% of the cost of one cup and the Rombouts 17%. If I found someone who shipped the Waterfall filters to Norway, it might have ended up in around the same cost, but it could have been more expensive if they didn’t do the VAT stuff. Amazon takes care of all that so I don’t have to pay a service fee to the shipping company for doing the job. The VAT is the same, but the fee is £20-30.

I found a few shops selling the Waterfall filters for less than £8, but none that ship here. There’s also a 25% discount on hario.co.uk if you use code NEWYEAR25.

If I bought 4000 filters, it would last me 5.5-6 years. :D

MWJB

Zephyp Using the Rombouts from UK instead of Hario bought in Norway (at a discount) cost me 11.5% more per cup. The V60 filters are 01 size, so there is more paper per filter in the Rombouts. The filters cost 2.5x more. The Hario filters represent 8% of the cost of one cup and the Rombouts 17%.

Wow! 40x white Hario 01 papers are £4.50, or more, here, 40x #4 Rombouts are £1.40.

LMSC

MWJB I see. IIRC, I saw this score (7/9) for this coffee a couple of weeks ago. Did that use Rombouts ?

Early days, I assume as I think this project waterfall adds another filter paper choice on top of Kinto Cotton for self.

Thx

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