> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p15060 They want the government to stop all new oil licences and consents. Ah, so they want prices to climb even higher for everything and old people to be cold in their homes….nice. Then when the lights go out, they will no doubt dance a merry jig as we go "Back to the 70s", except we won't have any petrol, diesel, or the professor with a flux capacitor to help us.. If we get to net zero this way, then we will have saved 1% of earths carbon emissions whilst the hundreds of planned coal fired power plants get built over the next 5 years or so. I think: * Japan is planning to build 22 * 240 under constriction or planned in china and so it goes on…I read somewhere the total figure worldwide could be 800 plants. So anything we do is insignificant. I suppose when our countries done for, they can go and protest in China and Russia

I think humanity is doomed, but our generation has not done nearly enough to try and slow climate change. Its older people own homes, meat eating pets, tumble dryers, outdoor hot tubs, fly multiple times per year, generally eat meat and diary. Then they use one of their wasteful SUVs to drive a few yards to Waitrose to buy some coriander and the Daily Mail. Yes, if I were young I would be pretty angry too.

@"Alexvs"#p15062 Agreed, people will start filling up every time they see availability. I don't see how these protests solve anything. We have to transition to low carbon/ renewable energy and it will take decades. More urgently we need to increase our resilience and autonomy. We should be making tough decisions like fracking for a set period to bridge the gap.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p15072 and get the nuclear program well under way.

Nothing will change. This government/parliament is so corrupt self centred. When the health minister and chancellor both have green cards, and playing the system so they dont put what they should in, i see no future for this country. Only way anything will change with them is if they can make money from it.

Government and folks running it are cut away from reality; they won’t understand what it means to get hurt - economically. They may not know what hunger is. A 5P duty cut on fuel, NI hike, … Seriously? 🙄 No one is against net zero. It is important. The technology and the economics of it aren’t there to support effectively. We can’t fix it in 5-10 years, after we collectively abused the environment for centuries. Why are we boiling the ocean, when our house is flooded?

I am a dinosaur. The earth has been around for billions of years where metamorphosing or evolution has always gone on. Despite the extreme views of the vocal mob, I do not buy into climate change as a concept, even though I understand that there will be many who wish to shout me down. Shouting me down still does not make them right. We have come through many periods of time. What caused the Ice Age I wonder in a time before technology beyond a flint knife existed? Yet still it happened. We life in a nasty time currently. With diversity and the minority able to emotionally blackmail the majority, mainly due the the success of social media. Let us hope that if folks object to what I say, we can all still remain friends and respect each others views

yes, the earth has undergone many climate changes of a huge nature over its existence, the point isn't about that though, it's about what we are doing that is accelerating it from the naturally occurring incidents (like meteor strikes or huge volcanic eruptions) and basically consigning the human race to a rotten future if we don't change our ways. you can believe what you want, but it doesn't make you right or worth listening to on the subject because what you are saying is yet more rubbish that is being driven by this idiotic culture war.

@"gotters"#p15116 No offence taken matey.......what the view like from up there?

@"dfk41"#p15117 I wanted you to take offence, you are spouting drivel.

@"gotters"#p15118 But you did not offend me! Nor have you explained your point of view, but perhaps I can save you some time here as I doubt I would read it. So, to sum up: You are allowed to peddle anything you like in the name of climate change of the good of the world as you perceive it, and if I hold a view that is not the same as yours it is drivel. Ah, democracy working at it's best again

Climate change and Energy Security

chlorox

I discovered this thread only now so i am posting the following as my own personal opinions. I don’t expect they will be agreed with by many but be that as it may, they are what I believe for better or worse, and no offence is meant to anyone!

The climate is changing but it has always been changing. The illusion is that there is a ideal state that we are drifitng from - coincidentally that ideal state is always that of our childhood! This illusion is more likely born from recentism. Human society may have an effect on global climate but no one knows how much is the effect and whether it is “good” or “bad”. No one knows if all the drastic measures some are advocating will have any effect on the climate and by how much and if they will actualy have a net benefit or of they will bring more damage than any benefit they may bring, no matter how much virtue signalling Swedish schoolgirl media darlings may pontificate about it. No matter how much catastrophe doom mongering climate change activists declare that climate change will bring untold ecological and weather disasters on an unprecedented level, that is not happening in actual fact - https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2022/01/10/why-disasters-have-declined/?sh=654e818c1897

https://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?id=1588

Man Made climate change is more likely than not going to be discussed in a hundred years as a mass hysteric global hoax that sustained a billion dollar industry in NGOs, media, burracrats, scientists, academics, and of course opportunistic businessmen (https://www.heritage.org/environment/commentary/follow-the-climate-change-money ) and gave millions of rootless youths who are looking for a cause to motivate their purposeless lives a campaign to rally around to save the world - instead of doing much more tangible things thay can actually make the world a better place like these

Lastly if we thought that a heating up world is bad, we should just think about what a new ice age would actually do instead (which was what some scientists in the 1970s were worried may happen https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11643-climate-myths-they-predicted-global-cooling-in-the-1970s/ ) - now that would really end much of human society…

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16026-humans-may-have-prevented-super-ice-age/

chlorox

https://www.amnh.org/explore/ology/earth/ask-a-scientist-about-our-environment/how-did-the-ice-age-end#:\~:text=Scientists%20call%20this%20ice%20age,an%20ice%20age%20right%20now!

https://eos.org/research-spotlights/characterizing-interglacial-periods-over-the-past-800000-years

The beginning of the present Holocene interglacial period was abou 11550 years ago…so we are due jn a couple of thousand years for another plunge back into the Ice agr when the entire northern hemisphere was encased in a massive ice cap…no worries about rising sea levels because there won’t be any cities to be flooded since they would be all literally plowed under by massive glaciers….so just maybe rising carbon dioxide levels are a good thing?

chlorox

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35307800

“We are now in a period when our (northern) summer is furthest from the Sun,” the Potsdam researcher explained.

“Under normal circumstances, the interglacial would be terminated, and a new ice age would start. So, in principle, we are in the perfect conditions from an astronomical point of view. If we had a CO2 concentration of 240 parts per million (200 years ago) then an ice age could start, but luckily we had a concentration that was higher, 280ppm.” Today, industrial society has taken that concentration to over 400ppm."

Rob666

There is also considerable geological evidence that the switch from interglacial to glacial periods can and did occur occur very quickly, in 20-30 years following a period of warming. This is, of course, highly inconvenient for the scientists proselytising global warming… It may not be something we should rely on but should certainly be borne in mind.

DavecUK

Here’s another view which may not be popular. We have one life, just the one. So why make it as unenjoyable as possible which is what the pointless pursuit of net 0 in the UK is doing. We cannot make any difference with our 1% of carbon emissions, it won’t stop China, India, or any other country producing ever increasing emissions from fossil fuels. Even if we achieved net Zero, our saving would be swallowed up in a year or 2 at the most.

So back to the one life thing. I care about my kids and my grandkids (if I live to see them)…after that, I don’t care. This is because I cannot really care about those born after I am dead. Call me selfish!

Gagaryn

DavecUK

Curious why plans for net zero world is making your life so unenjoyable? It is having negligible effect on my happiness, if any.

I find it remarkable that you think it reasonable to not care about the world after you are dead - but kudos for your openness.

Cuprajake

quadruled gas and electric is having a marked effect upon my life, thats all part of it, my house i set at 16 degrees, it gets to 18 in the bedrooms and my gas and elec bills are about £270 pm, thats £190 up on this time last year, dont even get me started on my business charges at work, had a 14.4%raise from bt coming april :(

Gagaryn

Yup - bills are huge for all of us at them moment which sucks, but it’s due to massive increases in wholesale gas prices for a variety of reasons - but not net zero.

Worth remembering that when the price of gas goes up then the price of all electricity goes up, no matter how it is produced. Again - not related to net zero, quite the opposite in fact.

DavecUK

Gagaryn Yup - bills are huge for all of us at them moment which sucks, but it’s due to massive increases in wholesale gas prices for a variety of reasons - but not net zero.

My post wasn’t the gas prices…that should resolve over time, but the net zero nonsense.

One Lord stated that “they” would need to force people to adopt heat pumps
If the government are mandating heat pumps (guaranteed customers), why didn’t they set up a giga heat pump factory, instead supporting a failed battery factory.
Why are the government giving people 6K grant for a heat pump that costs less than 2K to build in our own factory)? They could build 3 heat pumps and sell them for less. Rather than the 10K it currently costs and companies outside the UK, are effectively pocketing the 6K
When will renewable energy be cheaper
How will people afford cars once the petrol car is banned (plus the massive uplift in all types of car prices, dragged up by the ludicrous price of electric cars).
If we’re all going to use public transport as towns and cities go ever greener in what seems like a war against the motorist, why are the services mostly rubbish outside london
Why is public transport so expensive if it’s better. London has 1 billion a year subsidy from central government until 2025 and still lost 800 billion last year because the bus network is very unprofitable (-750 million). If busses can’t work in London for gods sake, how can they possible be profitable outside if/when they form the bulk of travel options for motorists forced from cars.
Why are we building HS2 (I’ve never understood)
80% of our housing stock is unsuitable for heat pumps and the average upgrade/installation will cost 24K
We have a fraction of the electric charge points we need for EVs
I’d Hazard a guess that 50% of homes wouldn’t allow charging an EV at home (flats, terrace houses with no drive etc..).

I could go on and on…but the main thing is, we were never asked, never told of the consequences, it’s being rammed down our throats and our basic freedoms are being eroded.

dutchy101

DavecUK

Hard to disagree with any of this.

Gagaryn

DavecUK If worrying about all of this is making life unenjoyable for you can I suggest that you simply stop worrying about it. :-)

Flippant perhaps, but no more so than admitting to not caring about those born after you are dead.

DavecUK

Gagaryn If worrying about all of this is making life unenjoyable for you can I suggest that you simply stop worrying about it. :-)

If it wasn’t directly affecting me, that’s what I woul do

chlorox

There is an even easier way - just abandon net zero altogether…there is no proof it wil make the climate better and there is the risk it can actually make it much much worse if it leads to carbon dioxide levels dropping to the point that it causes the inter glacial period to end…

Cuprajake

how are gas and electric prices whole sale atm?

Gagaryn

DavecUK Surely it’s not affecting you more than it is everyone else. Can’t help thinking you are allowing this net zero thing to affect you a bit too much. Relax, like you say we only have one life so don’t worry about things that you can’t change. You’re starting to sound a bit ‘Greta’ on this subject - just with totally opposite views. :-)

DavecUK

Gagaryn it doesn’t matter if it’s affecting me more than anybody else or not, but doesn’t make it any better.

Pompeyexile

I honestly do not know who or what to believe when it comes to the net zero stuff. We are told to put our faith in those clerverer than us, those who study these things i.e. scientists and then some say they have an agenda too so don’t believe them.

All I do know is that there is undisputible proof that human actions are effecting the planet in negative ways. For example large floating Islands of plastic in our seas, micro plastics found in fish, the burning down of vast areas of rain forests, millions of gallons of s**t being pumped into our rivers…I could go on.

Now even if as a 64 year old I can say well this is not going to affect me as I only have possibly 20 years to live if I’m lucky, doing something about it all has to start sometime surely and so why not now? If all we ever say is well if they are not going to do anything about it what is the point of us doing anything NOTHING would ever get done.

The problem seems to me is that evidence is produced and then governments give a knee jerk reaction and make rash decisions without really thinking through issues arising from those decisions properly.

DavecUK

Pompeyexile Now even if as a 64 year old I can say well this is not going to affect me as I only have possibly 20 years to live if I’m lucky, doing something about it all has to start sometime surely and so why not now? If all we ever say is well if they are not going to do anything about it what is the point of us doing anything NOTHING would ever get done.

The issue is that those in real power, “the establishment” are not going to ever change. By real power, I don’t mean individuals e.g

China
India
Rainforest destroyers
Oil
Plastics
Banks
USA
China
Russia
etc…

These entities will not stop ever. If there is money to be made they will make it. The Japanese will fish the last whales from the sea, the rainforest will disappear, oil will be extracted until they can extract no more and plastics will be produced in increasing quantities. As resources get scarce countries will go for them any way they can. When the going gets tough, people will not work together to solve the problem, they will work to get rid of the competition.

Entities, countries and the majority of people look out for number one. My evidence is here https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-huge-queues-as-americans-panic-buy-guns-amid-virus-outbreak-11958526

The media has promoted the notion that everybody cares and it’s a good soundbite for politicians (who trust me don’t care). The koolaid has been well and truly drunk and nowhere near as many people as we are led to believe “really care ” My evidence: All those actors, wealthy and powerful people telling us what we must do whilst they fly their private jets, own their private islands, swimming pools, big cars, jet all over the world etc. etc. When covid came they were all initially pushing in line to get their jabs so they would survive (Tom Hanks, Idris Elba etc..).

There are some nasty things that go on in the world….

Cuprajake

look who funds the scientists, usually shows i did with a certain jab when you realize big pharma fund 60-90% of budgets, there has to be a conflict of interest,

im all for saving the environment, and doing my bit, problem is the rest of the world looks at our silly little island and laughs in our face, germany full of coal power stations, china, india pump out 10 times what we do,

sadly like everything in this world its about money, and none of this will change, until they can make more money out of it that fossil fuels.

Gagaryn

Shouldn’t really be any surprise that countries whose economies are based around manufacturing emit more greenhouse gases than those countries who consume the good made elsewhere. China is basically a factory for the world. This belief that the UK should do nothing because nobody else is a bit Catch 22 isn’t it?

Amberale

Gagaryn

We have a similar attitude down here in Oz.
Our Carbon footprint is tiny and nothing we do will make a difference.
Of course we don’t count all the coal/gas that we sell to China/India/Japan et al.

Personally I don’t have much skin in the game.
No kids.
More to the point, my nieces and nephews etc don’t seem to GaF and continue to build McMansions and drive huge cars.
We grow our own protein and most veges, drive old cars small annual mileages these days and recycle almost everything but Murdoch and his scum manage to convince the general public that mining billionaires shouldn’t have to pay any tax.

Cuprajake

it is catch 22 - theres not much more we can do that doesnt cost us personally,

i could replace both family cars for electric vehicles, replace my boiler with a heat pump and add solar, but to do so would cost me £100k, thats not attainable, - my espresso machine costs more than my car….im a part of a low income family, i work 6 days a week running my business.

there has to be realistic goals for people, ev would be perfect for me i work 10 miles away,

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