Hi, I'm new here. I'm looking to buy a new espresso machine as an upgrade/replacement for my Silvia. My requirements are: PID controller for constant temp/pressure. E61 system. Dual boiler (is this overkill for home use?). Option to use resovoir and tap water. Budget is the price level of these two machines below: I am looking at Lelit Bianca PL162T V3 and Izzo Alex Duetto IV Plus. Which one would you recommend and why? I read the Lelit review here (https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/lelit-bianca/) and it does sound very promosing. But how does it stack up compared to the Izzo Alex Duetto? I would really like to hear what advice you have to offer.

> @"larsg"#p16253 Option to use resovoir and tap water. Welcome. Not sure where you live, but this would be a recipe for disaster in many parts of the world where the water can as hard as nails, as any softener won’t do much to prevent the machine to start malfunctioning due to limescale formation eventually leading to its breakdown. Unfortunately I can’t help you make a choice. Izzo machines are solid but rather old school; Lelit tend to be very innovative, good quality and affordable. For what’s worth, for better or worse, Breville Group AUS bought Lelit recently.

Your in luck, I did the top level design for the Duetto back in the day. It's not changed much. Buy the Bianca.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p16257 I am only going to connect the machine to the plumbing when I have some sort of water treatment installed as well in order to soften the water :-) I don't know Breville Group. Do they have a good reputation?

@"DavecUK"#p16260 Thank you for your response. So just to make sure I got this right: You actually worked on the Duetto and you advise against this machine? Because it is bad? Or just because the Bianca is better or more modern?

If you have the budget for a Bianca then it's the best at that price point.

@"larsg"#p16264 Breville makes the Breville Dual Boiler, for example. They are good machines. Breville AUS is known as Sage in the UK.

By the looks of it, I should go with the Bianca. I see that the Bianca has a L58E brew head. Whereas most machines seems to have E61. What are the major differences between L58E and E61? Which one is better?

Why not ACS Vesuvius? @"Paolo_Cortese"#90 did an amazing deal for £1650 some weeks ago. You will add VAT and import duty if you live in the UK. Some forum members like bought this. You can drop him a note and ask if this is still available. As @"MediumRoastSteam"#p16270 advised, please sort your water before purchasing the machine.

> @"larsg"#p16265 So just to make sure I got this right: You actually worked on the Duetto and you advise against this machine? Because it is bad? Or just because the Bianca is better or more modern? 18 years ago I did the top level specification, design and testing for the Duetto. * Boiler sizes * pump type * case used * PID Control and PID Tuning * Steam boiler on or off * I completely designed the specialized preheat system in the service boiler to prevent it from being able to overheat the brew boiler. Mainly because they used to large preheat tube. Although in the end my design made the preheat very stable and consistent. It was based on my thinking and knowledge 18 years ago…and has not moved on much since, except to do some things I wanted at the time, that they didn't do, especially with regards pump mounting. It was the first machine of it's kind that set a trend in the espresso world, but they didn't move on with the design.. I have Duetto number 0001…..the first machine ever made….which they gave me. The Bianca is modern, up to date and a better machine, or as people have said, stretch to a Vesuvius, if you want the Ultimate in profiling, temp stability and on off preheat (if you want to use it in a cafe), plus a mechanical disconnect of the preheat system from the brew boiler to prevent heat syphoning.. I was heavily involved in the Vesuvius and a tiny bit in the Bianca (I have the prototype) and I also have the latest Bianca (I had that for almost a year before launch). I think you would love the Bianca…(or the Vesuvius)…or perhaps something from left field, the Vesuvius Evo Leva.

> @"larsg"#p16284 What are the major differences between L58E and E61? Which one is better As far as I know, the Bianca sports an E61 brew head. Maybe L58E is something Lelit came up with with a new name for it due to the flow control device. For all intents and purposes, the Bianca has an E61 brew head, and flow control devices can be retrofitted into E61 brew heads.

Lelit Bianca PL162T vs. Izzo Alex Duetto IV Plus - Help me choose

larsg

Thank you all for your responses!

I note the clear unanimous vote for the Bianca.

Thus, I am going to order the Bianca right away.

Thanks again! What a wonderful forum this is!

Ernie1

Enjoy, the Bianca is a fantastic machine!

larsg

Not sure if I need to create a new post for this or not: But not what I get my Bianca, I might want to go for a new grinder as well.

I currently have the Gaggia MDF grinder. This grinder works kinda OK.

But if I am to upgrade and my budget is max 200-300 USD. What should I go for? Are the Lelit grinders entry level grinders any good? Is the upgrade from the Gaggia MDF too small to notice? Should I rather keep my MDF until I can afford an even better grinder?

MediumRoastSteam

larsg Should I rather keep my MDF until I can afford an even better grinder?

I would. However, contrary to what most people think, the grinder is the most important part of the combo, not the machine. Ideally, you are better off upgrading the grinder first and then upgrading the machine later. If you have a mediocre grinder, or a grinder that’s not up to the job (i.e.: the MDF), you’ll never be able to get the best out of your machine, effectively nullifying its benefits.

CoyoteOldMan

My suggestion would be to wait and see… I don’t think you are going to get a significant improvement if you want a brand new grinder for $300, notwithstanding MediumRoastSteam totally correct observations.

One key question is what is your workflow/use: are you planning on changing beans and/or grind frequently, or do you favour one type of extraction (espresso) and one type of beans? I’ve just got myself a Ceado E37S, which is great with a hopper and relatively high volume (for a household - 250 g/3 days!) of the same beans, but would be a bit of a disaster if we were changing beans every day or brewing pour-over as well as espresso.

larsg

MediumRoastSteam

Right, so what would be a good grinder to go for?

How are Rancilio Rocky or Lelit’s entry level grinders?

What budget should I have in order to get an acceptable grinder?

larsg

CoyoteOldMan

Ceado E37S is over 2000 USD where I am at 😳

Is this really the budget I should expect for an acceptable grinder?

If going for a used grinder, are there any “safe” models to look out for?

CoyoteOldMan

larsg No, no - sorry, didn’t mean that at all. There are plenty of cheaper and perfectly good grinders (and I got the Ceado 2nd hand, for about ⅓ of the new price, otherwise “no way José”).

What I was trying to say is that what grinder (type) you want to look at, depends on how you intend to use it. The Ceado (or something like it) works very well for someone with relatively high consumption of coffee, but no variety. It would be a bad choice - regardless of price and “absolute” capability as a grinder - if you want to change beans every shot, or even every day.

Waitforme

I’ve got the Eureka Specialita and am perfectly happy with it.

Not expensive either.

Is there anyone near that could let you try their grinder ?

larsg

Waitforme

Looked up the Eureka Specialita. It seems to come it several variants at varying prices. I cannot figure out what the main differences are. Is everything inside the same - and the differences are then only the design/cover material?

Example variants:

Eurika Mignon Classico Chrome/Mat black

Eurika Mignon Silenzio black

Eurika Mignon Perfetto Chrome/Black

Eurika Mignon Specialita

Eurika Atom Specialita

Eurika Atom Specialita 75E Automatic

(and there are many more)

Unfortunately, I do not know anyone nearby who likes real coffee…

MediumRoastSteam

The Rocky is a very old design. It was great 20 years ago. Things have moved on since. As for The Lelit grinders… I don’t know. They don’t appeal to me at all. I don’t like wasting coffee, so most of the traditional grinders in their standard shape and form don’t appeal to me due to retention - of course some are better than others. Some modify ex-comercial second hand Mazzer grinders for single dosing and enjoy the results.

It all depends what you want, and it would be best to do your Research. The Niche is very popular here, or maybe the DF64 if you value single dosing.

Anyhow, as said before, if you already bought your machine, see how you get on with your MDF. If you Google, you can modify it to be stepless so it might have another lease of life in it. 👍

larsg

MediumRoastSteam

DF64 looks nice. However, it does not seem to be available in my country.

Will look into how to make MDF stepless. I would say, though, that I have been quite fond of the MDF with my Silvia. I have calibrated it so that it produces very find grind and at least worked very well with my Silvia and the beans that I typically use.

Since people in here say that the MDF is no good, what are the concrete short commings of the MDF compared to other more expensive grinders?

I figured that the Rocky was an old design. I really would like to avoid retention. I think the MDF is actually fairly goo in this regard as it retains very little ground.

JahLaza

larsg my first grinder a year ago was the eureka specialita cr. they retail just over £300 now I think. In my opinion it is an excellent grinder, very easy to use, maintain and adjust for different grinds. Produces great ground coffee most importantly. I single dose and I found it retains very, very little between shots/coffees. If I was recommending a grinder in this price region I would recommend it without any hesitation. I now use a niche zero, as you will see lots of praise everywhere for it, it’s more expensive than the eureka and a different grinder (conical burrs etc)

larsg

JahLaza

Now, I am showing my ignorance: What does “I single does” mean? Does this just mean that you grind coffee for one cup of coffee at a time and not a full kg of coffee? I mean, I also just grind coffee for the 1 or 2 cups of coffee that I am about to brew. Does this mean I single dose?

JahLaza

larsg yes, basically that I grind one cup at a time. I don’t leave beans in the hopper, well, I can’t with the niche anyway but you can with the others listed. I can do this because I just make one coffee at a time mostly and so this way keeps the beans freshest until I need to grind them

larsg

JahLaza

OK. So are you talking about the unground beans or ground beans in the hopper?

I mean, I will leave a “buffer” of unground beans in the hopper. Since the bean bag has already been opened, this should make little difference if the beans are in the hopper or in the bag, right?

We are talking about the ground beans here, right? I dont want to retain any ground beans in the grinder.

JahLaza

larsg the hopper is what stores the unground beans. In the case of the eureka specialita that’s the plastic square container with sloping bottom that sits on top of the grinder. As a single dosing grinder, the niche has no hopper, you can only fit about 25 grams or something of unground beans into the dosing ring hence this is a single dosing grinder as you can’t fit much more than enough for one coffee. I weigh out my beans and throw them into the grinder so one dose at a time. Retention of ground coffee inside the grinder is a different topic and you want to minimise this unless you will be grinding coffee all day and it doesn’t matter then as any retained ground coffee will quickly be used.

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