If anyone has experienced both of these grinders I'd be very interested in your impressions and in particular in their relative to their respective ability to produce yet the ability to produce the fullest flavoured medium to dark espresso.

I own a Key, it replaced a Niche. Been using it for four months now. The espresso from the Key delivers more flavour notes. The variable speed makes a small difference too - lower speed a bit more clarity, higher speed a bit more body. I’m no expert, but the grinds out of the Key are visibly different than from the Niche, it was the first thing I noticed. Same bean selection on both grinders. Same prep. Obviously the Key does its Magic Tumbler stir, but I RTD again anyway. I find the Key easier to clean. I prefer the slim footprint, and it’s quieter. But most of all I prefer the espresso. I’m not overselling the Key, at this level there can’t be a big difference, but it is noticeable. If I was offered a refund for the Key and given my Niche back, that’s a deal I wouldn’t take. You pay your money and take your choice.

Wonder what Hoffman was rabitting on about then!

Surely any comparison needs to consider the price difference? Niche is £500 whereas (as far as I can tell) the Key is about £1,600, not including import costs. For some people, the Key may make coffee that is worth £1,100 more. For others, any difference (if they can tell any) wouldn’t be worth the price difference.

Niche vs Key

dfk41

Mark-drinks-coffee Spot on matey…..whether you think you can, or whether you think you cannot, you are probably right anyway

tompoland

EasyRawlins thanks for that. Your observations are consistent with the theory that the Key would produce espresso closer to a flat burr than the Niche with the former offering a bit more clarity and less syrupy mouthfeel. If that’s the case then the light to medium roast espresso drinkers would probably prefer the Key and medium to dark espresso drinkers the Niche.

Does that sound about right?

EasyRawlins

tompoland … again no expert, but yes I would agree with your assessment. It’s interesting that in the last couple of months I have started to predominantly use Wendleboe which are lighter roast. The Key handles them well.

I ran the Niche and Key alongside each other for a bit to get the A/B and had others try too. The Key gets the thumbs up. Marginal of course, but there is a difference.

Beverast

Mark-drinks-coffee Just checked their website. Shipping to the UK it’s closer to £1750 with shipping and I’m assuming import costs would need to be added as well. So yeah, probably closer to £2000 all in and not available until 2023.

tompoland

Beverast almost a 12 month wait time. And you pay upfront. Wow, how times have changed. It says a lot about the coffee communities regard for Weber products, current misteps don’t seemed to have significantly dented enthusiasm.

Cuprajake

There’s a chap in the us who has paid $4300 for an eg1, paid up front was told a may del time, now being told July….

Think Weber have bitten off more than they can chew

tompoland

Cuprajake I can beat that! (Not that this is a competition that I would like to win.)

I ordered a grinder on June 30 2021. It shipped from Germany to Australia on April 12 this year but alas it is still sitting in customs. In my case it was Covid related parts supply issues. By the time it arrives it will be well over ten months since I paid for it.

I think I prefer Webers old system where you registered an interest and received and email when stock was available. That is how I ordered my EG-1 about a year ago. But even with their current pre order system, at least they give an ETA, with the emphasis being on the “E”. With my order, the supplier literally had no idea when he could secure parts.

When that chap was told “it’s going to be July now” I hoped he asked “July? OK, which year?”

tompoland

Cuprajake just looked on weber’s site and it is now saying that new EG-1 orders are expected to ship Q4 2022 and new orders for the Key expecting to ship is Q1 2023. Wow.

Cuprajake

wow, id not order- id go somewhere else

dfk41

If these companies who bring high end kit to the market, spent more time on releasing test information…..who has done it, what have they changed as a result, then more people might be tempted. Back in 2000 or so, when I became interested in coffee the standard starter kit was a Classic with MC2. There was simply not the choice that we have now. It is quite common to see folks splashing out thousands of £'s on kit early into their career. Nothing wrong with that, but unless you have a Super tasters taste buds, then where is the gain.
For me, the coffee I make usually falls into 2 categories, acceptable or not, drink it or sink it….sometimes you do manage to make a cuppa that is outstanding. It is nice to have nice kit, but remember, you may have a Porsche, but it does not make you a racing driver

MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 Nothing wrong with that, but unless you have a Super tasters taste buds, then where is the gain.

But Dfk you can speak from your experience. If I remember correctly you had lots of grinders and coffee machines, so you know what works for you.

The problem is, coffee is one of those things that you’ll never know until you try it - hence most of us here upgrade and spend a considerable amount of cash for those amazing 45ml of black liquid. Besides, taste is subjective as you say it, and, even if I had amazing tastebuds, I would not be able to tell if I like product X or Y until I try it myself.

If we all had the mentality of the drink or sink it categories, or driving a Porsche doesn’t make you a racing driver, we all would be happy as Larry with our Gaggia Classics and Eureka Mignons.

Who knows, maybe one day I’ll drive a Porsche and find out the hidden talent in me. 🤣😊👍

EasyRawlins

On every forum around the world every Key thread gets into it not being £1,000,000 better than the Niche.

Is the Ferrari in its high performance small batch production world worth £140,000 more than the Porsche? Who knows, only a pro driver could find out.

Ditto the Key or Niche.

Whether our hobbies are cars, wine, hi-fi, coffee, etc the price equation is irrelevant. It’s down to each individual to select whatever they want. There is snobbery and inverted snobbery in all esoteric pursuits.

Mark-drinks-coffee

EasyRawlins

I don’t disagree at all with your point but I think it’s impossible to compare the two products without referencing the relative price of both. Each individual can then weigh up the ‘value’ of both the products and the price difference.

DavecUK

Mark-drinks-coffee Pricing can hugely affect ones expectations, perception and performance of a product.

I was told about a comment made by the designer of a very high end product. Knowing what I know now, I realise they should have known then, and it shocks me. The impact on the products performance would have been significant. Of course some people will be following that advice and notice no issues, because they paid so much.

There is actually a conversation on home-barista at the moment, were user has had a few issues with his la marzocco machine. Of course because the machine is a la marzocco, don’t worry they will make it right, great machines, very few problems. If it had been a different brand, I suspect the reaction woul be quite different.

dfk41

MediumRoastSteam I think one of the major problems, is the automatic assumption that this breed of new super grinders automatically occupy the top slots in the league table. It therefore becomes increasingly unrealistic for owners to criticise them. Yes, I have had many many grinders and machines but I have not bought into the current trend of bloody expensive single dosers. Is a Key really 4 times better than a Niche based on cost? Well, I am quite happy with the coffee I make. Could it be better, even 4 times better? I leave you to ponder!

hthec

DavecUK in the case of brands like Ferrari and La Marzocco, or a new-school example Option-O, they have shown over time that they will make it right or try their best to. It’s part of the premium you pay. And while I tend to look askance at buying based on brand, the assurance of customer service is something I can fully understand. Thing is, you don’t appear to get that level of customer care with Weber. And Sprometheus is just a high profile example. So then what are you paying for? The aesthetics (I do have to say it’s beautiful) and the promise of better results, evidence of which is hardly forthcoming from Weber itself and even harder to come by from most reviewers

tompoland

More points to ponder:

It’s rare that a thing that costs twice as much is twice as good. It’s hardly ever proporionate. Rewards (this includes the price a thing will sell for) are usually disproporionate to results. The champion at Wimbleton may score 1% more points than the runner up but will be rewarded with $2,4 million versus the runner up’s $1.2 million. The winner was not 100% better but rather perhaps 1% better. And if we only bought when there was an improvement in the cup that matched the price increase by percent, then would all still be using Mokka pots for our espresso.

2, Many place value on aethetics and are prepared to pay more for something that they like the look of even though there may be no noticeable improvement in the cup. A lot of people gain a great deal of satisfaction with a stunning piece of kit on their bench (guilty as charged).

Some people have a lot more money than others. If a buyer has ten million stitting around then paying 4x the price for something that is 10% better is not such a big deal as it might be for someone on welfare who had to be careful with every penny.
Price, as @DavecUK has pointed out, creates perception. If you want people to regard your brand as premium, then you need to price it accordingly. Of course if you charge a premium but fail to deliver a premium prodcut, word will get out and people will stop percieving it as premium regardless of the price. .

dfk41

tompoland Whilst I agree with the above Tom, I also emphasise the point, that because you own a highly regarded grinder, it does not mean you will make a decent sort of cuppa. Also, how many of these top end grinders are supposed to have been thoroughly tested before being marketed, yet within a short amount of time problems appear. In the case of the Moanalith. any problems are brutally suppressed. This is the advantage of having a closed forum, like Decent, Moanalith and Londiddlyum

whinmoor85

tompoland

I think once you get past the £500 mark it’s diminishing returns for grinders on the home market.

whinmoor85

tompoland

I don’t have a Key so can’t comment personally but YouTuber Sprometheus said he could only taste a minimal difference between it and the Niche, with the Key being slightly cleaner and producing less texture (he’s since sold the grinder).

https://youtu.be/Qm-nVwtD_00?t=538

Hoffmann said something similar but seemed to emphasise the difference more 🤔

https://youtu.be/bQ-ta6s931c?t=1079

Cuprajake

When you get to a point it’s always going to be incremental.

It’s bonkers really that some of us are prepared to pay £££££ to make a drink, esp when we could get the tasting notes with a hand grinder and paper filters

I have friend with a kafatec, and he can be near burr chirp to get espresso grind, the grind is that fine less,

It seems the general consensus is under a grand, off the shelf the niche is king, it’s kinda flattering to the niche that they would even speak about it regards the Weber, seen as its 4 times the price.

Don’t forget spromethues got a lot of views from his little tat with Weber, I do believe they said send it back but he said he would sell it…views make pounds in the social media world, so take it with a pinch of salt