Several times I've come across comments I want to be sure I understand. Essentially, it's this. The Gene Cafe is a sort-of "mix" of direct (like many/most commercial roasters with a firebox under the drum) and indirect (most home roasters) by virtue of hot air + rotating drum. The statement is that that gives an even roast, less likely to burning or tipping, BUT at the cost of a tendency to, and I quote, "subdue flavours". My question is …. how subdued? Which leads me to whether home roasting **for me** is a good idea or not. The risk seems to be that I gain in versatility of doing what I want, how I want, at least once I learn enough to get that to happen, but that buying pre-roasted from a **good** roaster gets both the benefit of big, heavy duty roasters, and a professional roaster's experience. It'll also save me the expense of buying a roaster, though I have to say that saving money (on cheaper green beans) wasn't why I was looking at this. Anyone got any perspective on that "subdued flavour" thing, 'cos I thought the point was getting the best out of the beans.

@"CoffeePhilE"#p684 - so… the Behmor and the sandbox, although home roasters, are not hot air roasters. They are direct heat, similar to a “pro” roaster. Yet, I visited my local roaster down the road, and the roastmaster gave me a tour, and showed me the roaster: a completely sealed chamber, and it’s a 50kg hot air roaster. As per the subdue flavours… I kind of agree. In my very little experience with the Gene, the Sandbox, and my own built in air roaster, the Sandbox comes out on top, hands down, in terms of taste, being able to reproduce and modulate flavours. Yes, it has I other issues already discussed, but it’s by far the best in that regard. With the Gene, in my opinion, is more about being able to get something good within its ability. For instance, most of Gene users will tell you to go full power until first crack, and, around there, or just before, you start thinking of playing with the temperature, as that’s the only thing you can control. With the sandbox, you can control drum speed and airflow too. The flavours I get with the Gene, at least at the moment, are nowhere as good as I’d get from the pros. Yes drinkable, it’s ok, but it’s not wow. it’s seems to be on the “flat” side. Again, in my limited experience and personal opinion. If you are into light roasts, I chatted with the roastmaster at HasBean before buying the Behmor, and he was saying that light roasts are not easily achievable with home roasters due to the very small mass of beans in the drum.

I always find this home roasting very interesting. My home roasting experience was primitive at best and the last time I remember [roasting](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/50-down-the-memory-lane) was when I was 20 on an Aluminium pan on a Gas stove. 1. Home roasting is an expensive proposition, especially if we want to buy a decent unit matching professional standards. 2. The size and frequency of roasting are other challenges. We consume 6 cups between 2 of us; So, on an average 110g a day. This means, 1KG - 1.5KG capacity is the minimum requirement. 3. The cost is a big factor here. The Probat, Giesen Dietrich with basic config like roasting and cooling might put us back by 8k-10K? The Amazon Dailian is probably a sweet spot, which costs £3.7K at the BB; add plus £500-£1K for flue / exhaust - if required ? 4. What’s the realistic chance of recovering the investment, assuming it doesn’t break? Is it worth it? Can a part of it be better spent on a good grinder or perhaps a VST than the roaster ? 5. The quality of roasting - sure, we will get better 6. Do we want to spend weeks in and out doing only this? There is life beyond coffee. 7. Finally, peace and harmony at home are the biggest factors. It’s a no for me. 😊

@"CoffeePhilE"#p684 I think the answers to your questions are subjective and really depend on what you want to achieve. Here are some very subjective thoughts from my own experience: I find roasting similar to other DIY's in the food/drink department. When I compare homemade bread/pizza/beer/coffee and everything else - in all of these the commercial/professional environment will usually have an advantage over the home environment in terms of equipment, experience, scale, repeatability etc. However, the home environment also has advantages. For example, when DIYing you can change things to suit your own preference without the need to please anyone else. You have more control on what you put in and how you do things. You have more control on when to make what, when it's fresh etc. So, for example, you will probably find that a top pizzeria with a real pizza oven and an experience pizza master will blow your home pizza out of the water. But maybe you can make ace pizza at home which you will really enjoy and is better than anything you can get near where you live? So is it worth making pizza at home, or should one only have pizza at the best pizzeria? - the answer is subjective, and you have to answer it for yourself. It's the same with espresso, I guess. The best commercial environment might outperform a home barista, but often what you can make at home is very good (good enough for all of us here who chose to do it). The beer I brew at home with a couple of plastic buckets I usually enjoy more than what I get from a professional brewer in a pub, but you might think otherwise. As @"MediumRoastSteam"#p685 said, it might also depend on what you are trying to achieve. A light roast might be harder to get right than a dark roast (like a lager might be harder to brew at home than an ale). So this is another subjective point that depends on what you like. Personally I took a year of break from roasting to buy coffee from commercial roasters. My experience was that most of the time the coffee I bought roasted was either too dark or too light for my own taste. I can't tell a roaster that I like their coffee, but can they please roast a little lighter/darker next time. But I can easily tweak my own roast level if I want. This is an advantage to home roasting (imo). As for convenience - @"LMSC"#p686 pointed out the disadvantages of having to roast at home from a convenience point of view. He is right, but it's subjective again. Personally I found the routine of buying roasted and having to manage ordering/resting/vacuum packing etc. inconvenient compared to roasting my own. When roasting at home I buy beans maybe once a year, then get into the habit of roasting on demand according to my resting schedule (which is very simple). Balancing the hassle of roasting against the hassle of ordering roasted more frequently without knowing for sure when I will get the coffee and not knowing when it was roasted until I get it - for convenience alone I much prefer home roasting. But for someone else it can be the opposite. Of course it depends on your attitude to roasting as well. You might enjoy it, or you might find it a chore. And it depends on your circumstances, and the equipment you have, and your environment…. Different people like and appreciate different things. This is why there is diversity with what people choose to do. I understand your want to know everything before you decide, so you can buy once. But there is also a disadvantage here because you have to make a decision without having your own personal experience (which is all that matters here). Some things you will not know until you try, and there is a limit to how much you can learn theoretically from other peoples' experience.

Interesting set of replies, and I pretty much agree with most of what's being said….warning longish post, grab a coffee. From my own perspective, the home roasting journey is in 3 phases, initially: * We're curious, want to learn more about coffee, what we enjoy and the hobby. Much like home brewing, wine making, bread making etc.. * Something new to play with, to learn, a hobby. Something that's our the thing we do in the quiet times. * The excitement of what will it taste like. How good will it be, whats coffee really like when it's guaranteed fresh * Roasting it our way…."I did it myyyyyy, wayyyyy". After the initial period subsides, we enter the next phase: * It's bloody cold outside in winter, or wow that's a lot of smoke if roasting in the kitchen * It's harder than I thought to roast great coffee,..it's not tasting good * I don't know what I'm doing. I'll buy that book they all go one about * What do you **mean,** I have to modify the roaster I purchased!! * I'm starting to be more methodical, taking notes and keeping roast logs If you get through all of the above, you reach the final phase: * You either stick with the roaster you bought, or you bought a different one * You read up more about the science behind roasting, maillard reaction, sugar decomposition, critical temperatures and phases etc.. gained **experience** with your roaster and hiw **it** works. * You're comfortable about roasting coffee and you realise most of the stuff you were reading, especially in that book you bought by S\*\* \*\*\*\*o was not that helpful. * **You understand and work within the limitations of your specific roaster** * You know where to buy beans that are good quality and **resist the temptation to roast cheap beans in a small roaster (OKish when learning, but not when perfecting).** By this time, you either keep roasting (you may have stopped in any of the other two phases).. You have buggered up a lot of coffee and gained a lot of experience. It's really only experience that makes a good roaster. The right training on your machine can short circuit the time, but it will only teach you how to read the map…the journey to great roasting is still yours. You never stop learning and are always perfecting and will reach a point where you no longer purchase much roasted coffee, unless it's to check your roast. At this point, you're thinking of a roaster upgrade! This journey may have taken 2-3 years so far. I have my Amazon Dalian and with modification (mainly for warmer ambient temperatures), proper airflow and good technique…I can pretty much roast anything in it. A 1Kg bean mass is a large enough thermal mass that you don't get into any smaller roaster issues, and there is reasonable consistency whatever the temperatures/voltages. You do have to be alive to what's happening, and you do have to forward think the roast. If it's a coffee I've roasted lots of times, I no longer have to keep a detailed log, but I'm watching power consumed, rate of rise and the temperature time/checkpoints to make sure everything is OK….if it's not, I make a forward adjustment (predictive). **I would encourage anyone to try home roasting if you can afford the outlay, because you never know what sort of feel and talent you might have for it.** This is going to sound silly, but if you have the space for it, and a few people you can share the output with…then an Amazon Dalian 1Kg can incredibly make sense, ridiculous as that sounds. This is because used like this you will probably never have to clean it out apart from vacuuming cooling tray and chaff collector, clean the fan blades every 6 months to 1 year, lubricate it every year. Eventually, at 6-10 years, it "might" need a deeper clean. At the end of 10 years, you will probably get your money back, or most of it, if you have looked after it…mine is almost 6 years old and looks brand new, works like new as well. A few weeks ago I roasted up 10Kg or so, I have 4 roast sharers (which is enough), most of the coffee is gone, and I have enough to last me to Christmas, although I might roast again….especially if a few come and buy the rest of my stash. I charge the cost of the coffee, electric, bag etc.. and a little towards the roaster. The main reason I roast share is to have 4 or 5 different coffees on the go, purchased in larger (and therefore, much cheaper quantities)..my time is free.

@"DavecUK"#p698 How much do you charge for a KG of roasted beans please ? 😀 Thx

Three (edit - more now, while I was typing) very good replies there. Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. I need to reread them carefully, and as suggested, do some serious thinking. Which, of course, is hard with my level of (or absence of) knowedge of roasting. Which is why I so apreciatd those responses. I also very much taken the point about home bread making, and home pizza making, etc. I've done both, though pizza is rare here these days, and overall, my results tend not to match a 'proper' professional, but certainly blow mass market/supermarket efforts and chain pizza takeaways clean out of the water. That's probably as much due to fresh good quality ingredients as any skill on my part, though. I still prefer results from a proper artisan baker, probably due both to skill and to the temperature profiles of large bread ovens, But getting hold of that, here, isn't easy and my own efforts are a good second choice. And that's perhaps the justification for giving it a go. I wasn't going to go here, but in answer to Doram and "depends what you want to achieve", perhaps I should add some context. DaveC already knows. I have stage 4 cancer. That means, if you don't know, terminal. What I don't know is how long. **So far**, treatment is going well, and the signs are it could well be another 5 or even 10 years. This is largely due to a **very** new chemo treatment, every day, which is only about 4 years out of trial phase, and I've been on it for nearly two years. It is likely that, at some point, that will stop being effective, but it's really just too new to have a good grasp of when that might be. When it does happen, and it could be years, there are still more treatment options **but** they may not be as gentle in terms of chemo side effects. Therefore, what do I want? Well, it's more a case of… if I want to do it at all, best not to hang around too long before doing it. My overall mobility has decreased, and chemo side effects make me less inclined to, for instance, eat out and even going out for a coffee is a bit of a trek. Anything coffee-related, of course, I can and pretty much have to do at home, so it hits that point too. It's therefore partly about having (another) hobby, It's partly something I've always intended to explore, but work and lifestyle (lots of foreign travel) prevented in the past, and partly, of course, about drinking good coffee. In any event, this no doubt explains why I seem to be in an undue hurry, running (and doing parkour, in the form of roasting) before I can walk. If I don't do it pretty soon, I **might** not get the chance at all. It is certainly why, for instance, I have no interest in "dipping my toe" into the roasting waters, with things like popcorn makers, etc. It is at least conceivable, though hopefully not, that I just don't have the time. It also explains my "don't much care what it costs" statements. We're not rich but do okay, the family are okay financially whatever happens, and I have a budget, for lack of a better term, for 'indulgences', be it scales, roaster, new camera, whatever. So, I really appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting it to answering my endless list of questions. Also, hopefully, these discussions will be a record of the 'journey' I'm on, coffee-wise, and raise some questions for anybody else thinking about it, whether it be "expensive" scales, roasting, or whatever. Thanks, all.

GeneCafe - Direct versus indirect heat in roasters?

DavecUK

LMSC I charge by the 430g ish…because depending on the coffee, 1kg roasted splits into about 430 ish g after roasting. To not have waste and not have to mix batches, I just split a 1kg roast into 2 bags. It varies, depending on the coffee..I probably charge around half the price of commercial online roasters. I don’t look to make any profit on the coffee.

Trouble is I’m not a business, I don’t deliver coffee, well for one guy I hang it on the other side of my garden fence as he lives adjacent to me. I save him a 10-minute walk by hanging it on the fence post. My roast sharers buy whatever I am roasting, there isn’t any choice. I do 2, sometimes 3 coffees, and they choose between those on a first come, first served basis.

I’m also happy with 4 roast sharers, otherwise I have to buy and store too much coffee and then roasting becomes a chore, something I have to do even when I don’t feel like it..many of my sharers buy coffee from other roasters, whilst they wait for me to get around to roasting again.. (after asking me when I’m planning to roast next).

LMSC

CoffeePhilE I’m very sorry to hear your illness. We will pray for your recovery and may He grace you, cure you and bless you with a long-lease of healthy and happy life.

Get well soon.

In the mean time, spend your valuable time with your family members, friends and enjoy making some lovey coffee. Take care! 🙏🏽

CoffeePhilE

LMSC I’m very sorry to hear your illness. We will pray for your recovery and may He grace you, cure you and bless you with a long-lease of healthy and happy life.

Get well soon.

Thanks for the thought. But to be clear, getting well is an extremely long shot. Until the last few years, it was no shot at all. Now, there are a lot of advances in labs and about the only chance of recovery is getting on to every experimental treatment I can find, and hoping one works.

Expert opinion is that a cure is coming ….. eventually. There are significant developments happening, largely in the form of understanding of genetics, and very carefully tailored treatmnt targeting the genetics of specific cancers. This might end up being a treatment specifically designed, tailored, for me. It;s a long shot because it’s doubtful I have the time that’ll take to reach general use. Hence, getting on to trials.

That, however, involves a trade-off. First, a lot of disruption, and perhaps travel, even if I do get onto a trial or trials. That kind of disruption can destroy the quality of whatever time I do have, in the hope of a cure. Secondly, the treatment itself, by definition, experimental and that carries some risk, especially to quality of life.

So …. do I risk ruining any quality of life to go for a very long shot of a cure? And there was me thinking which coffee roaster to go for was a tricky decision. 😀

One more thing. I’m at ease with all this. It’s all in mindset, but whatever will be, will be and meantime, live each day to the full.

Sorry for the downer. That’s partly why I hesitated to go into this at all. But some of my posts must have looked a bit weird without the context.

LMSC

CoffeePhilE Not all weird, tbh. We all have our own reasons for every thing we do, say and so on. So, please don’t be.

Every one of us fight our own demon unique to us. A lot of things happened in my life, the way they happened, why they happened and how bizzare / strange I’m still around! 😊

Covid has single handedly taught us how to value life, cherish what we do, enjoy life as it comes on a daily basis and never taking it for granted. People near and dear have disappeared from our earth just like a bubble would.

So, let’s enjoy as long as our lovely life lasts! Tc 😊

DavecUK

CoffeePhilE I think this just emphasises that none of us know how long we have, there’s no do-over we all get one shot. So let’s enjoy it as much as we can, not waste it, and be nice to each other.

I think the only decision for you is…do you want to learn roasting as a hobby, will it give you pleasure and occupy your mind (regardless of) the results….if so, you go for it! 🙂

MediumRoastSteam

I think I am on phase3 of Dave’s post with the Gene. My first attempt with the Gene was epic fail. I then gave up, tried others and, by luck, got back on the game with the Gene, but have accumulated some knowledge in the meantime. For the first time, I am now enjoying my own stuff. Far from ideal, but it’s a journey. The downside is that, if you don’t like what you produce, you can either drink it or throw it away. The problem is, the drinking part has to be done, so you can compare what you have with others, and of course, strive to improve upon it.

I’ve roasted now approx. 800g of coffee. half was for the bin. I’m drinking the stuff I roasted last, and, yesterday, I roasted some more. I’m yet to see if that’s any good, as it takes a good 3-4 days for it to be good.

Of course, I take notes like crazy. The downside is… That because I do so, sometimes I loose focus on what’s going on (e.g.: turning down temperature after first crack) when I should pay more attention to the process rather than taking notes. I’ve been thinking of videoing my roasts, so I can see what I did afterwards and then transcribe that onto meaningful notes.

If you can share what you produce with others, and if they like - you are then on a winning trend, as you can practice more and have feedback.

Yep, still learning a lot.

Doram

CoffeePhilE I am very sorry to hear about your illness and wish the best for you. Thank you for sharing with us. It does indeed put things into perspective, in more than one way.

When I wrote about roasting I mentioned that “it depends on your circumstances”. I didn’t know anything about your circumstances, but what you have told us really makes a big difference in my opinion. I think the question is what is important to you: is it having the best roasted coffee available to you for the time you have? Or do you want to have a go at roasting for the sake of the hobby/activity itself (of course presuming you can get good enough results quickly)? You said you had a go at making bread/pizza, so I would say draw from your experience from that: do you want to make bread/pizza for the sake of making it yourself, or would you prefer to just have the best possible bread/pizza available on the planet delivered to your table?)

What I am trying to say is, if you are only interested in the end result, your time is limited and you can afford it - then by all means buy the best bread/pizza/roasted coffee you can find. You can get subscriptions so coffee arrives at your door, you can buy small quantities from different places and have great coffee with zero effort. Don’t waste your precious time on trying to make something which you can just as well buy, unless you enjoy trying to make it yourself. And if you do think you will enjoy the activity as a hobby - then of course you should do it, and you should probably start today!

CoffeePhilE

My initial objective was all about the end result- the coffee. I didn’t want a hobby. That was i8n the dim and distant past though …. a few weeks ago 😀

However …. the more I looked at what’s involved in roasting, the more I started to learn about exactly what’s going on, how and why, and then the more interesting the whole thing became. What’s holding me back a bit, right now, is the possibility that that interest might be a bit transient. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve made that mistake over the years. But I’ve been reading forums, online books, watching videos, etc and still getting more curious. For instance, Mill City Roasters in the US has a lengthy series (20+ episodes) on Youtube of what appear to be training sessions given by a commercial roaster, and I’m still watching those.

So maybe the interest isn’t just transient.

One thought occurs to me. I guess that buying in good beans and roasting my own aren’t exclusive. I had worked out there was going to be some “spit it out and dump the batch” going on - a bit like dialing in a new bean for brewing. I think I just have to swallow that. Pun intended. But even if I do try roasting my own, it doesn’t stop me buying some in for actually drinking.

Best of both worlds - hobby in roasting, until I get something drinkable without gagging, and buy in the stuff to drink. Okay, it’ll cost some in wasted beans and somehow that cost rankles in a way that buying the gear doesn’t, but ultimately, it’s likely to be modest cost compared to buying the roaster in the first place.

My biggest problem might be that suggesting a Profitec 700 (or ECM. etc) nearly ended up with me sleeping in the garage, so getting a roaster past management might take some slight of hand …. especially the first time I smoke her out of her TV session with a roast that got a bit ….umm …. overdone.

Doram

CoffeePhilE Sorry to have to be the one to bring the bad news to you, but the fact you are writing here and watching videos about roasting means you have the bug. :-) If you feel inclined to try roasting - go for it. There isn’t much you can lose other than some money and a few beans (and maybe the relationship with your wife, if that’s an issue. ;-)).

Joke aside, if you feel like it - try it and then decide. If it’s not for you - sell the equipment and forget it happened. Or, if you really think it might be transient - try to forget about it for a while and think about other things. If it goes away - fine. If the thought creeps back on you and you can’t forget about it - then maybe you want to try it more than you think?

Of course there is nothing stopping you from both roasting and buying roasted. But I think your worries that you will roast for the bin and only drink what you buy roasted are unjustified. This is of course subjective and personal, but I don’t think I ever got such bad results that the coffee was undrinkable and I threw it away (and that includes a humble beginning with three popcorn poppers; but not mentioning the one time that I went away for something and started a fire).

As with other things, I guess roasting can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. For me it’s very simple: I put the beans in the machine, watch them dry and become yellow and then try to slow down a bit if I can, then listen for the first crack, start a stopwatch and press the cool button after a certain time and when looking at the coffee and smoke I think it’s done. Then, by taste, I might try to go a little darker/lighter next time. For me that’s enough. Others can do it with far more interest/intent. It’s all up to you to decide if you want to do it and how.

MediumRoastSteam

The Mill City roasters series are very insightful. But it doesn’t necessarily translate to your machine, let alone the Gene Cafe.

Keep us posted. If you are local to West Berks, you are more than welcome to check out a modded Gene Cafe roasting some coffee in the flesh :-)

CoffeePhilE

Doram As with other things, I guess roasting can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. For me it’s very simple: I put the beans in the machine, watch them dry and become yellow and then try to slow down a bit if I can, then listen for the first crack, start a stopwatch and press the cool button after a certain time and when looking at the coffee and smoke I think it’s done. Then, by taste, I might try to go a little darker/lighter next time. For me that’s enough. Others can do it with far more interest/intent. It’s all up to you to decide if you want to do it and how.

Er, yeah. I already knocked up a draft version of a log sheet, and the structure of a DIY database layout to track roasts and I haven’t even decided to buy one yet, let alone bought it. . I’m more the ‘note every detail’ type.

The “video the roast and take notes later” idea from above is a good one …. in the early days. Even I can see that getting old pretty quick.

As for “got the bug” …. what gave me away? 😁

Doram

CoffeePhilE The “video the roast and take notes later” idea from above is a good one

I started roasting over 20 years ago - never did logs or videos. I just roast by feel and trust my instincts. It might not be good for anyone else, but it’s good enough for me. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

CoffeePhilE

Oh, indeed. I meant good for me. It means I can scratch my data-collecting itch so I can analyse it later, and do it without taking either my eyes or concentration away from what I’m doing. Best of both worlds, but I totally agree, ,not for everyone.