Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? I'm asking this in good faith and I'm not wanting to start a flame war it's just something I've noticed on forums. There are other lever machines like the Profitce 800 but it doesn't elicit the same reaction.

![Giphy - Burning Set On Fire GIF by US National Archives](https://media1.giphy.com/media/ELMkSpGAzmUj2NAMnQ/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869fovjwmgeao294buutw8ixja3t8oniuzai27nn2nis&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) Personally this thread needs locking before it starts, as it won't end or start well.

@"whinmoor85"#p21157 Fair question, fair answer. Londinium came about towards Xmas 2012. In reality, there was very little to compete against it in the Prosumer division. The machines actual ability was bigged up to mythical proportions by Londinium plus supporters. Their claims though were never provable. We were force fed statements like "The Londinium is the most temperature stable lever machine in the market' but this was never proven. At the time, Londinium were also roasters and favoured darker beans. They realised that they were ostracising a large part of the market (lighter roasted beans) as the L1 was certainly in its Niche with darker stuff. This spawned the LR series which was aimed at lighter beans, ending up with the current LR24 model. The claim to fame for this machine is that you can vary the preinfusion pressure using an ap from your phone. Certainly break through but the effect this has on a shot is debatable. They had market share from 2012 to roundabout now. The machines are built by Fracino in Birmingham. Not really sure who actually designed it. So Fracino have the production line, hold the spares and in effect when someone buys one, a little box appears, Londinium who have really had no part in the process except sales, then stick their mark up on and a very expensive box wings its way to a proud owner. Over the years, anyone who has dared suggest that the machines they make are not the best in the world, are met with a barrage of criticism and cancelling from Londinium filtering down to their cheerleaders and fan boys. Then a few things happened at about the same time. The ACS Vesuvius Evo leva came to fruition. It is less expensive, far more developed and tuneable producing a far superior shot (has anyone documented an Evo owner selling up and buying a Londinium?). CFUK was sold twice and a certain clique of people on the whole were mostly banned. This lost them access to what was the biggest coffee forum in the UK that was Londinium 'friendly'. This meant people were no longer having their products forced down throats continually which must have affected sales and revenues. So, you end up with a bunch of people who are heavily influenced by one person who unofficially represents Londinium in the UK. He works behind the scenes, mainly by PM trying to buy and sell Londinium products. Funnily enough all of that clique ended up on their own little forum. All the Evo owners ended up on their far larger and busier forum and let us hope it stays that way. The Profitec 800 is a wonderfully made, beautiful looking machine. The big issue that it has is that it is a dipper. That means the group is bolted directly onto the boiler making precise temperature control an impossibility, a bit like the Londinium range. Yes, they use a thermo syphon to regulate temperature but there is actually no method of telling what that temperature is! I hope that answers your question matey

> @"whinmoor85"#p21157 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? I’m asking this in good faith and I’m not wanting to start a flame war it’s just something I’ve noticed on forums. > > There are other lever machines like the Profitce 800 but it doesn’t elicit the same reaction. I think it's pretty much down to the business practices of the owner and how owners of said machines think it's OK to react. It looks very much like a dropship model of doing business. To give it the fairy dust, it's been marketed super hard and is really **a very standard, average machine with a fairly low build cost, made by Fracino and marked up to an unbelievable price** for what you get. So Londinium have to be super protective and the customers because they paid so much for it, sort of have to defend it. A bit of "Emperors new clothes" perhaps When people ask the wrong questions, about the magic properties of the machine…then of course such discussion has to be put down..

@"dfk41"#p21162 @"DavecUK"#p21170 - thanks.

> @"whinmoor85"#p21157 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? Are you just curious or possibly considering buying one?

@"dfk41"#p21162 Thanks, a nice, rational exposition. I've had a sort of academic curiosity about the brand but always found the cult-like fervour a bit unnerving personally (bit like Tupperware and Amway in the 80's…) And like them, it seriously seems just a little overpriced…perhaps that's part of the special sauce? Good luck to those wanting to buy in, but the "my thing good, your thing BAD" seems kind of tragic.

> @"CafeNoir"#p21342 Good luck to those wanting to buy in, but the “my thing good, your thing BAD” seems kind of tragic. It's worse than that, it simply holds back espresso machine development for all. My view is the Londinium cult has held back lever development enormously….only now are consumers starting to see the more advanced levers we deserve and need for the 21 century. All we were getting before was more of the old 20th century technology….where the odd crumb of newer tech was hailed as the second coming e.g. a electronic thermostat (not a PID), or "enhancements" that were done because they were in Fracinos back pocket, not because they were needed. I still don't think they insulate the boiler? When a manufacturer gains an unassailable foothold and/or all discussion has to be positive, or people get jumped on, it really stifles others user opinion and manufacturers drive to create new things. I remember when the Evo launched, the behaviour by a few on a Londinium supporting forum was absolutely incredible (and that's being nice), the things that were being said and posted to try and kill a new machine to market. The best development environment is where people can be constructively critical, where manufacturers are not frightened to engage, and instead of becoming defensive….listen. Soon we may well have another dual boiler lever entering the market (I had a hand in the design), which can only be a good thing for the consumer. Londinium will then either lift it's game and lower it's fantastically high price (for what it is), or go the way of the Dodo.

Londinium is an interesting company. As @"DavecUK"#1 says, doesn't manufacture in house - relies on a separate company but that's not necessarily unique and there are advantages and disadvantages to that model. L1 which debuted in 2011 was designed around a thermosyphon to ensure, quoting Londinium marketing 'exceptional brew temp stability' with no need for cooling shots when pulling espressos back to back - a notable drawback for levers reliant on a dipper. Londinium at the time eschewed all things PID arguing they were unnecessary in the L1 given its argued thermosyphon temp stability. But nothing stays new forever and things move on. L1's successor LR 24 has a very quiet rotary pump instead of the original vibe one. Addition of rotary pump enables variable PI on the fly thanks to a digital module. Price of the original L1 at launch in 2011 was around £1600 but a new LR 24 is around £3700 - quite a jump. Having owned both L1 and LR and having enjoyed both machines and the coffee produced, I was seduced by the siren upgraditis. I wanted to stick with levers as I like the tactile feel and feedback a lever provides and the low maintenance. Also had the feeling that whilst the Londiniums I owned were very capable machines, might there be more to get out of a lever than they could? When launched in 2011, darker roasts held sway in all things espresso but that began to change with tastes and preferences beginning to include lighter roasts which pose problems for espresso as lighter roasts are inherently harder to extract than darker roasts and need higher brew temps. Therein lies Londinium's Achilles heel IMO - inability to adjust brew temp and accurate feedback on temps set. It is argued by Londinium LR 24 can extract at higher temps via the variable PI module but I don't understand how raising PI pressure impacts on brew temp and, if it does, by what margin and what temps. Londinium have also continued to use the Fiorenzato group but in a single spring configuration. There was a brief time when Londinium offered the two spring configuration but did not advise Londinium owners to go down that route. Over the years I owned Londiniums, questions began to nag regarding the peak and declining pressure curve nature of the single spring set up. Some users have fitted measuring devices and shown that Londiniums peak at around 8-8.5bar and decline very rapidly. Is this ideal for lighter roasts? I've had an ACS Evo on the bench for over a year. At the outset the thing that most stood out was the way it behaved with lighter roasts. Fruit note were even more forward and brighter than my experiences with my LR and without any attendant acidic unpleasantness. With my Londinium, I would be pulling shots around 35 secs and more to tame acidity with the side effect of introducing bitter over extracted bitter notes. With the Evo, extraction time sweet spot for me is 25 secs - balanced sweet fruit forward shots and no bitterness. I think Londinium is going to face some stiff opposition in the marketplace with the arrival of machines like the Evo. Question is, what does Londinium have up its sleeve to keep competitors at bay?

> @"DavecUK"#p21343 Soon we may well have another dual boiler lever entering the market ooh, this is such a teaser!

Londinium

mathof2

I don’t have much more to say about my own experience with the L1. The only other espresso machine I have ever owned is a 2nd generation La Pavoni Europiccola which I bought new in 1999 and now keep as a backup machine. The L1 meets my needs better, but the La Pavoni makes coffee that tastes just as good.

I don’t doubt that the reports here by people who have had disappointing experiences with Londinium machines are true descriptions. I have nothing in particular to challenge about them. My own model was discontinued years ago anyway. More recent ones provide greater flexibility for adjusting preinfusion pressure. However, I find the 1.4 bar at which I keep mine saturates the pucks sufficiently even with fine grinds. My Kafatek Flat grinder may help with that.

Cuprajake

i have a friend with a flat, has the sheriken burrs and he can some times struggle with his lr, something about burr touching point,

when i had my l1, i upgraded the pressure stat, and reduced pressure to 1.2bar, made a good difference and the click was gone too iirc a well worth upgrade if not already don

mathof2

LMSC

mathof2 I don’t have much more to say about my own experience with the L1.

You surprise me! :-) You have been using this for 8 years and say don’t have any to share - what works for you, what didn’t work, what is it you like, you don’t, what roasts you drink, and so on. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

I also did not own LP. But, compared to LP, the L should give a far better cup, no? If you say, the LP makes as good a coffee as L, then, it is fairly straightforward that either the L isn’t good (old or new) for the price or something other reasons. Most of us aren’t super tasters. It should prevent us from sharing what we think of a product that we own, should it?

mathof2 I find the 1.4 bar at which I keep mine saturates the pucks sufficiently even with fine grinds.

You aren’t far away. Most of the Evo owners have their PIs set et 1.5-2.0 bars. I think the factory default is 1.5.

dfk41

mathof2 I have also just sold my 2014 L1, indeed it is hopefully being collected this weekend! I do not think anyone said they could not make decent coffee. There has been rivalry though between Londinium machines and anything else. This stems from the fact that when they came to the market late 2012 they were bigged up by Reiss and the team. Indeed Glenn Watson was lent one of the few prototypes in the run up to Xmas 2012 and looking back, he spouted the biggest load of positive woffle you can imagine. I was an early adopter receiving my machine in February 2013 I think. I was a proud adopter. I stuck up for Londinium as much as anyone did. Even after I had to return my glass sided version for leaking like an old sieve

I even received a lifetime ban from Coffeesnobs that I still wear with honour today, for sticking up for Londinium. SO, what happened? Well, the claims that were being made by Londinium (in those days Reiss wrote a blog that contained lengthy articles every few days) really put it on a pedestal……The Londinium L1 is the most temperature stable lever machine in the world, being one. When asked what could be measured to back up that claim though, there was never an answer. Then a certain person bought a Bosco from Londinium (up until that point, they were the best lever machine in the world, as had been the Cremina before that. Remember, until they started selling their own, Londinium were roasters. An alliance was formed and cfuk members became nothing more than a list of prospects.
The problem is, the machines they make have always carried a premium price tag based on old technology. Someone pointed out that the L1 was no different to other levers in as much as it performed better with darker roasted coffee….in other words it excluded anyone who drank lighter roasts. Realising their schoolboy error, overnight Londinium started to rubbish darker roaster coffee in favour of lighter roasted coffee in a complete 180! At the same time, the LR replaced the L1 variant and the tweeking started, culminating in the variable pre-infusion we have today. Shame though as testing has proven that pre-infusion levels have far less affect on the shot than water temperature.
So, we are left with an LR24 costing £3739.69 in the UK, and £4300 in Hamburg. This is for a basic simple machine so when naturally compared to the Vesuvius Evo Leva costing considerably less (twin stainless steel boilers, 3 x pid’s etc etc) then you can perhaps understand. In addition, Londinium have made a habit of rubbishing any and all opposition in a way that is really uncalled for. My advice Mathof, is to find an Evo and see what you are missing!

mathof2

LMSC compared to LP, the L should give a far better cup, no? If you say, the LP makes as good a coffee as L, then, it is fairly straightforward that either the L isn’t good (old or new) for the price or something other reasons

The L1 is very repeatable due to its heavy group and spring action compared to the La Pavoni’s tiny group and manual lever. The latter however due to those same features can be guided to very particular results if you are familiar with how to manipulate the machine’s temperature characteristics and are sensitive to lever resistance and flow performance. Essentially it is a less stable Cremina, but after over 20 years of ownership I can compensate for that, and the Cremina is often praised for its results in the cup. It seems to me that as long as an espresso machine can do the basics expected of it, the grinder and the barista are the crucial variables for shot quality. Ease of dialing in and ability to make multiple shots in quick succession are another matter.

mathof2

dfk41 My advice Mathof, is to find an Evo and see what you are missing!

I would love to have a chance to use an Evo. I did travel to a market in North London last year, at the invitation of a coffee stall-holder who has one. It is an impressive machine and the espresso was first-rate.

Systemic

Cuprajake i have a friend with a flat, has the sheriken burrs and he can some times struggle with his lr, something about burr touching point,

Resonates with friend’s experience using a EKs with MK II coffee burrs. She is on the margin with light roasts even when the EK has been cleaned and properly set up.

Systemic

Been said a few times before but possibly worth repeating. Original L1 was tuned for use with medium plus/darker roasts for which it did really well. As I recall, Reiss recommended doses around 15grms.

Then espresso tastes began to embrace lighter roasts which present challenges for any espresso machine, i.e. taming acidic notes. This wasn’t lost on Reiss. Gradually, Londinium was being pitched as the perfect lever set up for lighter roasts. Whether that is true is up for debate. Achilles heel was always going to be the single boiler set up and the inability to adjust brew temperature. Londinium say that the ability to raise PI on current LRs also raises brew temperature. I don’t understand how this works but I am not a physicist. Perhaps others could explain.

With my original L1, I drank espresso using beans roasted by Londinium and enjoyed the coffee. Moved on to an LR when I moved towards lighter roasts. Results were good but I found, like others, pushing extraction times - sometimes over 40 secs to produce shots that weren’t sharp but it was a tightrope - longer extractions muted acidity at the expense of introducing over extracted notes. Concluded that was a limitation of the LR design - predominantly the single boiler set up with no ability to adjust brew temperature in a meaningful manner.

Reiss has said there are no plans for a further LR24 iteration but he’s said that before. Market place has changed a lot in the ten years since the L1 was launched. Will we see an LR 24 dual boiler set up in the future - that would be interesting.

DavecUK

Systemic Londinium say that the ability to raise PI on current LRs also raises brew temperature. I don’t understand how this works but I am not a physicist. Perhaps others could explain.

It’s nonsense and cannot make any difference.

CoyoteOldMan

Systemic Londinium say that the ability to raise PI on current LRs also raises brew temperature. I don’t understand how this works but I am not a physicist. Perhaps others could explain.

Taking that statement at face value, I’d say

Higher pressure does mean higher (potential) energy, and higher energy will eventually convert into higher temperature - but the increase in energy between a “low pressure” PI “high pressure” PI is ridiculously small, as the energy stored is also proportional to the compressibility of water, which at typical PI pressures is effectively zero (<5 × 10^-10^ Pa^-1^). To continue with an example, if the difference is 5 bar (1 vs. 6) and the water volume is 100 ml, the difference in compression energy is 9 milliJoule, or 0.0002 °C in water temperature - i.e. nothing (the CMBR varies by more). On the other hand, water exiting the impeller at a higher pressure will transit the heat exchanger faster, so it will absorb less heat, resulting in a lower temperature at ingress in the filter chamber… so I would expect higher PI to result in a lower brew temperature.

Then again, I’m not a physicist either. Speaking as an engineer, though, I’d like to see proof of this - it wouldn’t be difficult with a Scace2 and a thermometer on the boiler (so that boiler temperature is maintained constant before measuring).

mathof2

With my original L1, I drank espresso using beans roasted by Londinium and enjoyed the coffee. Moved on to an LR when I moved towards lighter roasts. Results were good but I found, like others, pushing extraction times - sometimes over 40 secs to produce shots that weren’t sharp but it was a tightrope - longer extractions muted acidity at the expense of introducing over extracted notes. Concluded that was a limitation of the LR design - predominantly the single boiler set up with no ability to adjust brew temperature in a meaningful manner

I adjust brew temperature in a Heath Robinson, but effective, manner. I cool or heat the group by flushes or fan breezes, respectively, while monitoring the results with a tc and digital thermometer. I have done measured experiments to determine the maximum brew water temp at various group temps, which help guide me when dialing in and pulling shots. The whole thing requires a kind of dance between puck prep and the moment of pulling the shot, so I can well appreciate the relative ease of regulating brew water temp in more modern ways, but this does work (in my opinion, anyway, judging by taste).

Before I changed from the original Mythos burrs on my Kafatek Flat to the LM Shurikens, I too could only extract very light coffees by long pulls. However, now I find extraction happens at near turbo-shot rates and the EY can be so high I have sometimes to find ways of dialing it back.

Systemic

mathof2 I can well appreciate the relative ease of regulating brew water temp in more modern ways

In the early days of Londinium, Reiss had issue with use of PIDs saying the thermosyphon design made them redundant and unnecessary. Not sure that stands now ten years on.

Cuprajake

Ah, temp surfing,

Do you have an outside group thermometer then,

mathof2

Cuprajake Ah, temp surfing,

Do you have an outside group thermometer then,

Yes

LMSC

mathof2 invitation of a coffee stall-holder who has one.

Probably @Stevebee

mathof2

LMSC Probably @Stevebee

Yes, in fact. It was arranged on cfuk.

mathof2

About a year ago, or less, there was a post on the closed Londinium forum from a user who had made Scace or Scace-type measurements of LR brew water temperatures aligned with PI pressure settings. There was in fact a direct relationship: more PI pressure, higher brew water temperature. I can’t vouch for his results, but even if they are accurate that wouldn’t, or course, explain what caused the phenomenon.

dfk41

mathof2 there are a couple of youtube videos if it is the same chap. @DavecUK might have them somewhere

Cuprajake

mathof2 it would be nice if it were an open forum for all to see,

i was a member there when i had my l1, i upgraded to the lr24 (returned) and got immediately banned, even though i still had the l1, i then decided to refurb the l1 with new parts, bought from londinium direct, i asked 5 times why id been banned and if i could rejoin, blanked till the last message said he would personally deal with me,

i then ordered new shiney bits, they came wrong, i had to post back at my cost!

i have no bugbear with reiss and have spoken to him since a few times, i just wish the forum would be open, as it was a cracking resource.

LMSC

I think the admin should spin this L discussion to a separate thread. We have been discussing this on and off in multiple threads. I don’t think we have a separate thread on Londinium.

DavecUK

I’ve split the Londinium discussion out from coffee YouTube reviews to the existing generic Londinium thread as best I can, so you guys can continue to discuss.

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