Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? I'm asking this in good faith and I'm not wanting to start a flame war it's just something I've noticed on forums. There are other lever machines like the Profitce 800 but it doesn't elicit the same reaction.

![Giphy - Burning Set On Fire GIF by US National Archives](https://media1.giphy.com/media/ELMkSpGAzmUj2NAMnQ/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869fovjwmgeao294buutw8ixja3t8oniuzai27nn2nis&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) Personally this thread needs locking before it starts, as it won't end or start well.

@"whinmoor85"#p21157 Fair question, fair answer. Londinium came about towards Xmas 2012. In reality, there was very little to compete against it in the Prosumer division. The machines actual ability was bigged up to mythical proportions by Londinium plus supporters. Their claims though were never provable. We were force fed statements like "The Londinium is the most temperature stable lever machine in the market' but this was never proven. At the time, Londinium were also roasters and favoured darker beans. They realised that they were ostracising a large part of the market (lighter roasted beans) as the L1 was certainly in its Niche with darker stuff. This spawned the LR series which was aimed at lighter beans, ending up with the current LR24 model. The claim to fame for this machine is that you can vary the preinfusion pressure using an ap from your phone. Certainly break through but the effect this has on a shot is debatable. They had market share from 2012 to roundabout now. The machines are built by Fracino in Birmingham. Not really sure who actually designed it. So Fracino have the production line, hold the spares and in effect when someone buys one, a little box appears, Londinium who have really had no part in the process except sales, then stick their mark up on and a very expensive box wings its way to a proud owner. Over the years, anyone who has dared suggest that the machines they make are not the best in the world, are met with a barrage of criticism and cancelling from Londinium filtering down to their cheerleaders and fan boys. Then a few things happened at about the same time. The ACS Vesuvius Evo leva came to fruition. It is less expensive, far more developed and tuneable producing a far superior shot (has anyone documented an Evo owner selling up and buying a Londinium?). CFUK was sold twice and a certain clique of people on the whole were mostly banned. This lost them access to what was the biggest coffee forum in the UK that was Londinium 'friendly'. This meant people were no longer having their products forced down throats continually which must have affected sales and revenues. So, you end up with a bunch of people who are heavily influenced by one person who unofficially represents Londinium in the UK. He works behind the scenes, mainly by PM trying to buy and sell Londinium products. Funnily enough all of that clique ended up on their own little forum. All the Evo owners ended up on their far larger and busier forum and let us hope it stays that way. The Profitec 800 is a wonderfully made, beautiful looking machine. The big issue that it has is that it is a dipper. That means the group is bolted directly onto the boiler making precise temperature control an impossibility, a bit like the Londinium range. Yes, they use a thermo syphon to regulate temperature but there is actually no method of telling what that temperature is! I hope that answers your question matey

> @"whinmoor85"#p21157 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? I’m asking this in good faith and I’m not wanting to start a flame war it’s just something I’ve noticed on forums. > > There are other lever machines like the Profitce 800 but it doesn’t elicit the same reaction. I think it's pretty much down to the business practices of the owner and how owners of said machines think it's OK to react. It looks very much like a dropship model of doing business. To give it the fairy dust, it's been marketed super hard and is really **a very standard, average machine with a fairly low build cost, made by Fracino and marked up to an unbelievable price** for what you get. So Londinium have to be super protective and the customers because they paid so much for it, sort of have to defend it. A bit of "Emperors new clothes" perhaps When people ask the wrong questions, about the magic properties of the machine…then of course such discussion has to be put down..

@"dfk41"#p21162 @"DavecUK"#p21170 - thanks.

> @"whinmoor85"#p21157 Why does Londinium divide opinion so much? Are you just curious or possibly considering buying one?

@"dfk41"#p21162 Thanks, a nice, rational exposition. I've had a sort of academic curiosity about the brand but always found the cult-like fervour a bit unnerving personally (bit like Tupperware and Amway in the 80's…) And like them, it seriously seems just a little overpriced…perhaps that's part of the special sauce? Good luck to those wanting to buy in, but the "my thing good, your thing BAD" seems kind of tragic.

> @"CafeNoir"#p21342 Good luck to those wanting to buy in, but the “my thing good, your thing BAD” seems kind of tragic. It's worse than that, it simply holds back espresso machine development for all. My view is the Londinium cult has held back lever development enormously….only now are consumers starting to see the more advanced levers we deserve and need for the 21 century. All we were getting before was more of the old 20th century technology….where the odd crumb of newer tech was hailed as the second coming e.g. a electronic thermostat (not a PID), or "enhancements" that were done because they were in Fracinos back pocket, not because they were needed. I still don't think they insulate the boiler? When a manufacturer gains an unassailable foothold and/or all discussion has to be positive, or people get jumped on, it really stifles others user opinion and manufacturers drive to create new things. I remember when the Evo launched, the behaviour by a few on a Londinium supporting forum was absolutely incredible (and that's being nice), the things that were being said and posted to try and kill a new machine to market. The best development environment is where people can be constructively critical, where manufacturers are not frightened to engage, and instead of becoming defensive….listen. Soon we may well have another dual boiler lever entering the market (I had a hand in the design), which can only be a good thing for the consumer. Londinium will then either lift it's game and lower it's fantastically high price (for what it is), or go the way of the Dodo.

Londinium is an interesting company. As @"DavecUK"#1 says, doesn't manufacture in house - relies on a separate company but that's not necessarily unique and there are advantages and disadvantages to that model. L1 which debuted in 2011 was designed around a thermosyphon to ensure, quoting Londinium marketing 'exceptional brew temp stability' with no need for cooling shots when pulling espressos back to back - a notable drawback for levers reliant on a dipper. Londinium at the time eschewed all things PID arguing they were unnecessary in the L1 given its argued thermosyphon temp stability. But nothing stays new forever and things move on. L1's successor LR 24 has a very quiet rotary pump instead of the original vibe one. Addition of rotary pump enables variable PI on the fly thanks to a digital module. Price of the original L1 at launch in 2011 was around £1600 but a new LR 24 is around £3700 - quite a jump. Having owned both L1 and LR and having enjoyed both machines and the coffee produced, I was seduced by the siren upgraditis. I wanted to stick with levers as I like the tactile feel and feedback a lever provides and the low maintenance. Also had the feeling that whilst the Londiniums I owned were very capable machines, might there be more to get out of a lever than they could? When launched in 2011, darker roasts held sway in all things espresso but that began to change with tastes and preferences beginning to include lighter roasts which pose problems for espresso as lighter roasts are inherently harder to extract than darker roasts and need higher brew temps. Therein lies Londinium's Achilles heel IMO - inability to adjust brew temp and accurate feedback on temps set. It is argued by Londinium LR 24 can extract at higher temps via the variable PI module but I don't understand how raising PI pressure impacts on brew temp and, if it does, by what margin and what temps. Londinium have also continued to use the Fiorenzato group but in a single spring configuration. There was a brief time when Londinium offered the two spring configuration but did not advise Londinium owners to go down that route. Over the years I owned Londiniums, questions began to nag regarding the peak and declining pressure curve nature of the single spring set up. Some users have fitted measuring devices and shown that Londiniums peak at around 8-8.5bar and decline very rapidly. Is this ideal for lighter roasts? I've had an ACS Evo on the bench for over a year. At the outset the thing that most stood out was the way it behaved with lighter roasts. Fruit note were even more forward and brighter than my experiences with my LR and without any attendant acidic unpleasantness. With my Londinium, I would be pulling shots around 35 secs and more to tame acidity with the side effect of introducing bitter over extracted bitter notes. With the Evo, extraction time sweet spot for me is 25 secs - balanced sweet fruit forward shots and no bitterness. I think Londinium is going to face some stiff opposition in the marketplace with the arrival of machines like the Evo. Question is, what does Londinium have up its sleeve to keep competitors at bay?

> @"DavecUK"#p21343 Soon we may well have another dual boiler lever entering the market ooh, this is such a teaser!

Londinium

chlorox

With the acs vesuvius evo and the nurri l-type leva being freely sold now, the londonium now exists in a world where they are significantly outgunned technically and technologically for the kind of price that they are charging, so they will have to respond with improvements or be left behind. It is the way of the free market and no amount of marketing will be able to resist that process, and no matter the result, it is all good for the consumers. Let the best machine come out on top and this will invigorate the lever market even more if londonium responds by upping their game.

dfk41

chlorox I really cannot see a way forward for Londinium. This is meant as sensible comment, not bitching. As chlorox has identified, the markets have moved on and I think that the modern consumer actually wants technology and is not impressed by what used to be good in the past. Their sales must have been hit and hit hard. They do not manufacture their own product, instead relying upon the Fracino factory line. Fracino will need to make enough money from this arrangement to make it worth their while. The Vectis was supposed to be a possible winner for them, but we have heard nothing concrete and everything is rhetoric sprinkled with their own brand of fairy dust, leading one to consider, will it ever surface and if so, what is holding it up?
The next year or so is going to be a critical time for them. I will miss my L1 2014 model when it goes but my sons needs have moved on and I have the Evo.

LMSC

dfk41 They do not manufacture their own product, instead relying upon the Fracino factory line. Fracino will need to make enough money from this arrangement to make it worth their while.

A rethink of the business model, moving away from the current business process, is required. They may want to make the mid-tier slim and trim.

We are seeing businesses are transforming and moving away from the old business and technical processes. They are adopting new innovative ways of doing business, trying to address the changed / changing customer expectations and embracing new technologies.

History is full of success stories and unfortunate failures. It’s the survival of the fittest. It will be good for the lever market and consumers, if Londinium ups the game.

dfk41

LMSC The owner lives in New Zealand. The effect of this is that he plays no part in the production process. Someone places an order on his website and he forwards it on to Fracino. This in effect makes Londinium a drop shipper. So what value are they offering the customer for the expected 30 to 40% they stick on? If they were to pay Fracino to develop and r&d it, they would have to have very deep pockets indeed. So, it is not exactly as simple as changing the business model. Indeed any change to the existing model just causes more issues. look at how they have struggled to bring a relatively simple new lever idea in the Vectis to the market. October 2017 was the first mention of this machine and nearly 5 years on it is no closer than the finish line of the London to Melbourne road race when you have just crossed the start line! It really is difficult to see the direction in which they head, but the main problem is, they are not captain of their own ship

CoyoteOldMan

dfk41 October 2017 was the first mention of this machine and nearly 5 years on it is no closer than the finish line of the London to Melbourne road race when you have just crossed the start line!

Admittedly, 2 of those 5 were ‘unusual’ years… but still…

LMSC

dfk41 I understand the challenges involved should L be interested in addressing them.

The current business model is probably

Idea / design by L —> Frencino —> L

As you said, if every thing is controlled by Francino, it is a very big middle layer and the L is just a white label. The white label’s fortunes rests on the what / how the middle layer decide with the design and production.

This is an ecosystem play. This is fine as long as the owner of the business controls and has a final say in all the processes from conceptualisation to delivery to customer support (after sales).

The new business model should be similar to what we are seeing in the case of other producers like ACS. The arrangements these guys have are perfect. They have a full control and fully leverage the eco system of partners to source the parts. It is still great to deliver the finished product directly to customers or through their distributors.

The world has changed. So are the businesses and their models. Like the employees who need to continuously update their skills to stay relevant, the businesses have no choice other than transforming or head towards their oblivion.

The trouble is this transformation journey will take a few years achieve. This is true for every businesses and not just for coffee.

dfk41

CoyoteOldMan If that was a genuine reason then fair enough, but according to blurb released, the only thing they were waiting on in June 2021 was the groups………….

Cuprajake

londinium have had the markets share of levers for a long time by the looks of it, but like anything in business tech moves on and business have to change to stay current, now for them for a long time, its not mattered they were the best of a small market - i dont count things like the kvd machine as they are 10k plus,

but since covid, theres been 3 new levers on the market, theres a smaller lever the argos coming out too, so now that market is shrinking, id have no doubt reiss is looking at the machines coming out and developing new stuff. personally i love the look of the londiniums, there smaller than my evo which is a beast tbf, i also love the look of my evo, but for different reasons, the l1/lr24 had a classic grace about it, the evo is like a radical mix of classic and future tech

what id like to know though and this isnt londinium specific as it can be done on a few machines, and its something i ask and often get blanked, what does a 6bar infusion do that a 3 doesnt? do people agree with a 20 secnd infusion or like me, a 6 sec or less infusion?

dfk41

Cuprajake I think those infusions you refer to Jake, are the depths owners had to go to to try and get the most out of their beans. I know @Systemic often used to mention this once he got the Evo…..perhaps he can explain better than I

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake do people agree with a 20 secnd infusion or like me, a 6 sec or less infusion?

I drink medium/dark+ stuff, and 6 seconds at 2 bars are all I can get before starting to get drops in the glass… If I grind tighter, then, even with nearly 11 bar at the start of the lever run, the machine is effectively choked.

Cuprajake now that market is shrinking

I’d say the market is expanding. What is definitely shrinking is Londinium’s share of it.

Systemic

Cuprajake what does a 6bar infusion do that a 3 doesnt? do people agree with a 20 secnd infusion or like me, a 6 sec or less infusion?

With the launch of the LR and ability to adjust PI up to 6 bar, recall Reiss saying there was little to be gained going above 4 bar. With the original L1 with fixed 3 bar PI, Reiss recommended PI’s around 5 secs but this was with darker roasts. Lighter roasts require finer grind so it’s inevitably going to impact on PI time. Don’t forget that the Londinium’s single spring is very soft peaking at around 8 bar may figure on why extended PI times are de rigeur.

CoyoteOldMan

dfk41 I would say that a global pandemic that caused a GDP drop of 5%+ is a fairly genuine reason. In addition, this has affected the whole supply chain, not just isolated companies or countries, and it has changed the shape of demand (either way) for many industries. Have you tried getting hold of some bike components recently?

Don’t get me wrong - it’s reasonably clear that (for whatever reasons) Londinium are stalling with the release of the Vectis. I’m just saying that a lot of releases by other companies and/or in other industries have been delayed too, and 5 years 2017 - 2022 are not the same as 5 years 2012 - 2017 (and, let’s hope, 2022 - 2027!)

Cuprajake

im wondering if the 6 bars say is used at such a tight grind that you can infuse longer for drips/beading

Systemic

Cuprajake im wondering if the 6 bars say is used at such a tight grind that you can infuse longer for drips/beading

As I pointed out above - Londinium bar pressure peaks around 8 bar so if you are setting PI at 6 bar, is this PI or extraction?

Cuprajake

CoyoteOldMan yeah i ment londiniums is shrinking

Cuprajake

Systemic my l1 was 1.3 bar infusion, not 3 bar,

i know most lr users set around 3bar and tend to leave it there, i remember asking when getting the lr

LMSC

Cuprajake Most of us leave our PI at 1.5-2 bars on the Evo. The PI at 3 bars may be a good idea for light / medium light. We need to try a few shots at 2, 3 and 4 bars for these roasts. But, I am not sure if the shot would good say at 3 or 4 bars in the case of >= medium roasts.

Grahamsphillips

I’m collecting @dfk41 L1 tomorrow and he’s promised to demonstrate it and (hopefully) The EVO as well. I’ve sold my LA Pavoni so I’m looking forward to the new “spring loaded” experience. Would I buy a new L1? Nope I’d opt for an EVO. But as I already have a Vesuvius this feels like an interesting alternative. Would I swap the Vesuvius for an EVO? Maybe at some point but the V is SUCH a sophisticated and well-built machine I wont’ be changing it any time soon! See you tomorrow Dave! @dfk41

dfk41

Grahamsphillips You will indeed! I have both machines here now but have not yet had a chance to try them. My son forgot to bring me a 58mm tamper but I will collect one later from him. Look forward to meeting you!

dfk41

What a pleasure it was, to meet Graham and Karen today to hand over my L1. Even though my son has had it for the past year, it still brought a tear to my eye to see it depart. I have pretty much had an L1 continuously since February 2013, with the odd period of time when other things caught my eye.
We had the chance to try coffees made on both the L1 and the Evo and it was a pleasure in putting both machines through their paces. Of course, I ballsed things up by forgetting to drop the dose of the L1 down to 15 gm from 17 but hey ho!
I have owned that machine since September 2019 when I bought it from my mate, Coffeechap…….bon voyage!

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