Good day all. Thanks for the advice from a kind member here to start a thread. I have owned my setup since Jul 7th after some time of research. Failing to get an acceptable result, I was so frustrated and pull 4 shots straight with even more terrible result. I then went to look at the return policy on the equipment but hope to get some advice before I give up. In term of setup, I have a Cafelat Robot manual lever and my grinder is the 1zpresso JX-Pro. Beans is from pact, the dark roast espresso 7 days after brew date. I acquired my understanding on espresso making via YouTube, including Hoffmann’s espresso series. Since I owned the setup, I have been trying to dial in the coffee from grind setting 2.40 down to 1.45. I tried each with an interval of 0.025. According to Hoffman, I should try to find the finest grind size where I still can achieve minimal channeling. Today, I tried go down to 1.45 and I choked the robot. I checked on a bathroom scale and it was 110lb force, where people suggested 25lb translated to 9bar. Even with 110lb pressure, I barely pull out 10g and I started to worried breaking the Robot. I did suspect I basically dislike espresso. But I went to cafe and tried the automatic machine in the office. Even the espresso from the automatic machine impressed me … Here are my workflow: 1/ weight 18g bean … 2/ grind and transfer to PF … 3/ obsessively prepare the puck with wdt and tampering with moderate pressure … 4/ add boiling water to basket 5mm to full … 5/ light pressure pull and preinfusion for 15s after seeing coffee wet all holes … 6/ pull for 25 - 30s with uniform pressure until getting 36g espresso … 7/ stir and drink … 8/ (always) another failure. I was getting barely acceptable shot at 2.10 grind size but far from what is good. The espresso I got from automatic machine was way better. And when I go finer, the bitterness was striking. The reason why I told myself not settle on 2.1 was because people told me they use 1.30 to 1.60 for JX-Pro. I am totally confused. any advice will be appreciated.

Here is the 1.65 grind size pull. I lift weight and I was trying to pull pretty hard in order to finish the shot at 25s. https://youtu.be/nJUcR9PlyxQ [URL=https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"Knluk"#591 I have no idea how this lever works. There is a user guide on the Cafelat site. You may want to read [this](https://www.cafelat.co.uk/blogs/cafelat-robot-manual/robot-tips) First, your puck prep is good as I see the beading is good and mostly uniform throughout the screen. Second, it takes a good 25s for you to start getting a pour, unless I’m missing something. Third, the shot is too long. You want to aim for 35s-40s. If this is a dark roast, then 25s-30s. These include PI time as well. Fourth, if the grind setting is 1.65 turns on your grinder for that video shot, loosen the grind further. Fifth, If the shot is tasting bitter, loosening the grind will help. However, are you pre-heating the water chamber and filter? If not, the hot water when you fill the cold chamber would no longer be hot enough. Am sure, somebody with more knowledge of this machine will chip in.

Why are you sure that you need a 1:2 brew ratio? Is this what the coffee you like is brewed at? Ratio is an assumption of strength/concentration, not a mark of quality/guarantee of good flavour….in fact, trying to pull all coffees that short is going to cause you problems. Coarsen up your grind setting. start pulling shots a bit longer, maybe 1:3 or 1:3.5. Don't be so focused on time, concentrate on the grind setting and the weight in the cup. If you have 15s of preinfusion you can still get tasty cups with another 10-15s on top of that (count the whole shot time, don't break it down, just do the preinfusion consistently). Score each cup, doesn't need to be complicated but give it a number, then average up the number over the last few shots, so when you make changes you can see if the average goes up, or down. The picture of the shot doesn't help, you can't see tasty, there 'is no way to troubleshoot that. So stick with 18g, record grind setting, weight of shot in the cup, total shot time (but don't kill a shot by time) & score. Don't get into a frenzy and make a bunch of shots in one go, just a couple if the first is not good enough to drink. Report back after each one, otherwise it's too easy to lose your way with back & forth adjustments and not make sense of what is going on. If 2.1 tasted best, maybe go a bit coarser, don't worry what other people do, do what you need to do to get a good cup.

To add manual levers are very hard to use too.

July 7th, as in, today? You can't give up on day one! 😅 So I got a robot only last week, and I absolutely love it. Rather than being difficult I've actually found it to be very forgiving. I also have a JX Pro. I'd say the beans I'm currently using are medium roast, and I'm at 1.4.3 (3rd dot) on the JX. I'm using 18g and pulling to a 1:2.5 - 1:3 ratio. I have the barista version and do the pre-infusion at 2 bar, followed by the rest of the shot at 6, perhaps tapering off slightly towards the end. These shots are landing somewhere in the 40 to 50 second range, which may seem long, but I'm getting very balanced results with this! 🤷♂️ I wouldn't go mad with the pressure, Paul from Cafelat suggests 6-7 bar, it sounds like you are far too fine for these beans. For me 6 bar feels comfortable, trying to get 8 or 9 bar is hard work, and difficult to maintain smoothly. You don't have to preheat the Robot, certainly not for dark roast and if you use water straight from the boil. If your beans are proper dark then you might even consider using water 10 - 20 seconds off the boil? Could you get a hold of some of the beans used in the automatic in work? I think this would be very helpful to compare. Don't give up, the Robot is a fantastic piece of kit, and very capable of making tasty espresso!

@"MWJB"#p21435 thanks. Lots of sound advices and I will give them a go. for the 1:2 ratio, I read so many people recommended it for beginner with 18g coffee. I just want to keep a few variable constant and focus on getting the grinder setting right. I have never tried other ratio, except that I tried 1:1.9 for experiment. It was even worse shot. Will try more ratio and report back.

@"Cuprajake"#p21436 before I made the purchase, I did read review and people said it is very forgiving and can produce coffee at par with expensive machine. I hope my learning curve is just a little steeper.

I don’t have any knowledge of manual lever machines but as others have said it’s probably a good idea to grind coarser, especially as you’re using a dark roast. Hoffman prefers lighter roasts and his guidance of grinding as fine as you can before you see excessive channeling is not something I would necessarily apply to a dark roast, which is more soluble and extracts much easier. It’s also possible that you prefer a medium or medium/dark roast. Something to explore in the future Don’t give up! It takes a while to get the hang of it; I’m still trying to figure many things out.

@"Bicky"#p21441 Thx for the encouragement. I am super motivated that you made good shot at early stage. Maybe I just took the wrong approach to start. your 1.4.3 sort of reaffirm me that my JX-Pro is really different from many others. I tried close the burrs and the setting read -0.1.0 (passed the zero by one number). The fact that you can pull comfortably at 1.4.3 really shocked me. I am sure even if I hand stand on it, the arm won’t move. I also think I should try to have a longer shot. The reason why I didn’t do so was I had some bitter shot and I learnt that the third part of the espresso is bitter. So if I pull a longer shot, it will become more bitter. I therefore tried 1:1.9 and it tasted like shit. Really getting no way to go. I tried to think of the problem in a more logical way. I understand I may not getting the temperature/ pressure/ or some minor thing perfect, but I have pulled 20 shots already. It won’t be that back unless I did something wrong fundermentally? From what I read from the comments here, it may probably the grind size and ratio. I admitted that I may not get even close to right for these two aspects.

@"HVL87"#p21444 I chose dark roast was because I was told it is easier to dial in for beginner. And no preheating need when using robot. But good idea to try other beans. Thanks.

Don’t want to give up home coffee making (need some advice/ encouragement)

Knluk

MWJB what is your score for drinkable?

I may have a different scale. If I drink a nice coffee from a random speciality cafe, I give it a 8.5 or 9.0.

MWJB

Knluk what is your score for drinkable?

I may have a different scale. If I drink a nice coffee from a random speciality cafe, I give it a 8.5 or 9.0.

I don’t really understand the question, if you don’t drink it, you can’t score it. I drink what what I make (if can).

Here is the scale I (and sensory testing) use:
1 = Dislike extremely; 2 = Dislike a lot; 3 = Dislike moderately; 4 = Dislike a little; 5 = Neither like nor dislike; 6 = Like a little; 7 = Like moderately; 8 = Like a lot; 9 = Like extremely.

85-90% as a rule, seems unrealistic to me.

Petre

Knluk oh alright then, the first ones look more like medium indeed.

FadedFrontiers

Knluk when you’re ready to tamp, just put the filled basket on top of a bathroom scale and see what sort of pressure you register as you push down normally with the tamper. 20-30lb of pressure is always mentioned for standard espresso machines but it shouldn’t matter too much provided you’re consistent (I’ve found a light fingertip tamp to be fine for the robot, just try to keep it the same each time and most importantly keep the level with the tamper handle in the middle as much as possible).

I only suggested it because I imagined you’d been using a bathroom scale for measuring the pressure with the robot arms, it shouldn’t be a huge factor but just something to keep in mind.

Knluk

MWJB make a lot of sense. Will try to use similar rating definition for ease of understanding.

Cuprajake

Tamping pressure to an extent doesn’t matter, as long as it’s level and consistent.

Looking at the vids you seem to have quite the pre infusion going, personally I prefer a shorter pre infusion. 5-6seconds for drips.

The coffees you seem to use will have a bitter note, that’s what they are roasted like. I know choc point can have a bitter dark chocolate note.

Perhaps you need something more medium?

It’s easy to get lost when doing what you’re doing.

I’d say find a grind settings, stick with it then alter ratio. Have you pulled a 1:1 ristretto?

Don’t go off looks, let taste guide you.

I can recommend north star brazil for a good med roast. That’s traditional flavours

Knluk

Cuprajake thanks for the suggestion. 1:1 seems interesting to try. The beans I am using is actually the NS Brazil : P

LMSC

Cuprajake The coffees you seem to use will have a bitter note, that’s what they are roasted like. I know choc point can have a bitter dark chocolate note.

Yeah! That’s why I asked him. Knluk says they are medicine bitter, although I still think what’s described as bitterness is either chocolate note or the roast. Personally, I would expect both the beans to have some bitter after taste. Based on the picture one is at least a medium dark and another is dark for me.

Knluk

Good day all! I finally made it! Appreciate all the help I got here.

I pulled two more shots (finer grind and 1:1) on the Brazil beans yesterday, which are not worth reporting. And the beans are used up.

I started the chocolate blend today and like it a lot at the first shot! Thanks @“LMSC” for the recommendation!

I am suprised that all the parameters, ie pressure, brew time, are spot on. The flow in the naked PF is advertisement type (although not the priority). I am already very happy with the taste but I think of pull a few more shots to see if any improvement. The taste is very balanced. Although I like thicker texture, I still think this shot is a tiny bit too thick. Maybe I can try 1:2.25 ratio?

Also, I found that quite a bit of the ground is trapped at the blurr compared to my previous beams. Does this happen to you?

MWJB

Knluk It doesn’t matter if a few grinds stick to the burrs, you’re weighing the grinds out anyway.

Knluk

MWJB thanks for the great advice. Could not have got the joy of this hobby without many of the advices I got here.

I also experimented one click coarser and finer grind. And suprised how much a click can change the taste. Will try even finer grind tomorrow.

May I check with you on ratio? As mentioned by you before, grind and ratio are the most important factors contributing the coffee produced. From some info gathered, it seems (but probably not exactly correct) that the first part of the shot is sour, middle is thick and sweet, and last part is thin and bitter(?) I just wonder whether and how I can perfect this dial in of this beans by fine tuning the ratio. Any advice will be appreciated.

MWJB

Knluk From some info gathered, it seems (but probably not exactly correct) that the first part of the shot is sour, middle is thick and sweet, and last part is thin and bitter(?) I just wonder whether and how I can perfect this dial in of this beans by fine tuning the ratio. Any advice will be appreciated.

You dial in 2 ways or a blend of both.

If your chosen ratio is giving ball-park results, stick to that ratio and adjust grind.

If you get no good shots at a given ratio, change the ratio (longer if all shots are sharp/tart).

Don’t waste time worrying about what sections of a shot taste like, it is a pointless rabbit hole. You are going to make a shot, everything in it contributes to the overall taste. Drink everything.

The first part of the shot is only sour if you under-extract a bit. Under-extract even more and they can be sweet (but lack complexity & clarity), under-extract even more and they can just taste like oil.

The middle is the middle and will be sour if you stop there, if you go past the point where whole shots are sweet, go back to where they are sweet again and stop there…then your sweet “middle” is now the “end”.

Focus on the end (shot weight) & the grind size.

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