Good day all. Thanks for the advice from a kind member here to start a thread. I have owned my setup since Jul 7th after some time of research. Failing to get an acceptable result, I was so frustrated and pull 4 shots straight with even more terrible result. I then went to look at the return policy on the equipment but hope to get some advice before I give up. In term of setup, I have a Cafelat Robot manual lever and my grinder is the 1zpresso JX-Pro. Beans is from pact, the dark roast espresso 7 days after brew date. I acquired my understanding on espresso making via YouTube, including Hoffmann’s espresso series. Since I owned the setup, I have been trying to dial in the coffee from grind setting 2.40 down to 1.45. I tried each with an interval of 0.025. According to Hoffman, I should try to find the finest grind size where I still can achieve minimal channeling. Today, I tried go down to 1.45 and I choked the robot. I checked on a bathroom scale and it was 110lb force, where people suggested 25lb translated to 9bar. Even with 110lb pressure, I barely pull out 10g and I started to worried breaking the Robot. I did suspect I basically dislike espresso. But I went to cafe and tried the automatic machine in the office. Even the espresso from the automatic machine impressed me … Here are my workflow: 1/ weight 18g bean … 2/ grind and transfer to PF … 3/ obsessively prepare the puck with wdt and tampering with moderate pressure … 4/ add boiling water to basket 5mm to full … 5/ light pressure pull and preinfusion for 15s after seeing coffee wet all holes … 6/ pull for 25 - 30s with uniform pressure until getting 36g espresso … 7/ stir and drink … 8/ (always) another failure. I was getting barely acceptable shot at 2.10 grind size but far from what is good. The espresso I got from automatic machine was way better. And when I go finer, the bitterness was striking. The reason why I told myself not settle on 2.1 was because people told me they use 1.30 to 1.60 for JX-Pro. I am totally confused. any advice will be appreciated.

Here is the 1.65 grind size pull. I lift weight and I was trying to pull pretty hard in order to finish the shot at 25s. https://youtu.be/nJUcR9PlyxQ [URL=https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"Knluk"#591 I have no idea how this lever works. There is a user guide on the Cafelat site. You may want to read [this](https://www.cafelat.co.uk/blogs/cafelat-robot-manual/robot-tips) First, your puck prep is good as I see the beading is good and mostly uniform throughout the screen. Second, it takes a good 25s for you to start getting a pour, unless I’m missing something. Third, the shot is too long. You want to aim for 35s-40s. If this is a dark roast, then 25s-30s. These include PI time as well. Fourth, if the grind setting is 1.65 turns on your grinder for that video shot, loosen the grind further. Fifth, If the shot is tasting bitter, loosening the grind will help. However, are you pre-heating the water chamber and filter? If not, the hot water when you fill the cold chamber would no longer be hot enough. Am sure, somebody with more knowledge of this machine will chip in.

Why are you sure that you need a 1:2 brew ratio? Is this what the coffee you like is brewed at? Ratio is an assumption of strength/concentration, not a mark of quality/guarantee of good flavour….in fact, trying to pull all coffees that short is going to cause you problems. Coarsen up your grind setting. start pulling shots a bit longer, maybe 1:3 or 1:3.5. Don't be so focused on time, concentrate on the grind setting and the weight in the cup. If you have 15s of preinfusion you can still get tasty cups with another 10-15s on top of that (count the whole shot time, don't break it down, just do the preinfusion consistently). Score each cup, doesn't need to be complicated but give it a number, then average up the number over the last few shots, so when you make changes you can see if the average goes up, or down. The picture of the shot doesn't help, you can't see tasty, there 'is no way to troubleshoot that. So stick with 18g, record grind setting, weight of shot in the cup, total shot time (but don't kill a shot by time) & score. Don't get into a frenzy and make a bunch of shots in one go, just a couple if the first is not good enough to drink. Report back after each one, otherwise it's too easy to lose your way with back & forth adjustments and not make sense of what is going on. If 2.1 tasted best, maybe go a bit coarser, don't worry what other people do, do what you need to do to get a good cup.

To add manual levers are very hard to use too.

July 7th, as in, today? You can't give up on day one! 😅 So I got a robot only last week, and I absolutely love it. Rather than being difficult I've actually found it to be very forgiving. I also have a JX Pro. I'd say the beans I'm currently using are medium roast, and I'm at 1.4.3 (3rd dot) on the JX. I'm using 18g and pulling to a 1:2.5 - 1:3 ratio. I have the barista version and do the pre-infusion at 2 bar, followed by the rest of the shot at 6, perhaps tapering off slightly towards the end. These shots are landing somewhere in the 40 to 50 second range, which may seem long, but I'm getting very balanced results with this! 🤷♂️ I wouldn't go mad with the pressure, Paul from Cafelat suggests 6-7 bar, it sounds like you are far too fine for these beans. For me 6 bar feels comfortable, trying to get 8 or 9 bar is hard work, and difficult to maintain smoothly. You don't have to preheat the Robot, certainly not for dark roast and if you use water straight from the boil. If your beans are proper dark then you might even consider using water 10 - 20 seconds off the boil? Could you get a hold of some of the beans used in the automatic in work? I think this would be very helpful to compare. Don't give up, the Robot is a fantastic piece of kit, and very capable of making tasty espresso!

@"MWJB"#p21435 thanks. Lots of sound advices and I will give them a go. for the 1:2 ratio, I read so many people recommended it for beginner with 18g coffee. I just want to keep a few variable constant and focus on getting the grinder setting right. I have never tried other ratio, except that I tried 1:1.9 for experiment. It was even worse shot. Will try more ratio and report back.

@"Cuprajake"#p21436 before I made the purchase, I did read review and people said it is very forgiving and can produce coffee at par with expensive machine. I hope my learning curve is just a little steeper.

I don’t have any knowledge of manual lever machines but as others have said it’s probably a good idea to grind coarser, especially as you’re using a dark roast. Hoffman prefers lighter roasts and his guidance of grinding as fine as you can before you see excessive channeling is not something I would necessarily apply to a dark roast, which is more soluble and extracts much easier. It’s also possible that you prefer a medium or medium/dark roast. Something to explore in the future Don’t give up! It takes a while to get the hang of it; I’m still trying to figure many things out.

@"Bicky"#p21441 Thx for the encouragement. I am super motivated that you made good shot at early stage. Maybe I just took the wrong approach to start. your 1.4.3 sort of reaffirm me that my JX-Pro is really different from many others. I tried close the burrs and the setting read -0.1.0 (passed the zero by one number). The fact that you can pull comfortably at 1.4.3 really shocked me. I am sure even if I hand stand on it, the arm won’t move. I also think I should try to have a longer shot. The reason why I didn’t do so was I had some bitter shot and I learnt that the third part of the espresso is bitter. So if I pull a longer shot, it will become more bitter. I therefore tried 1:1.9 and it tasted like shit. Really getting no way to go. I tried to think of the problem in a more logical way. I understand I may not getting the temperature/ pressure/ or some minor thing perfect, but I have pulled 20 shots already. It won’t be that back unless I did something wrong fundermentally? From what I read from the comments here, it may probably the grind size and ratio. I admitted that I may not get even close to right for these two aspects.

@"HVL87"#p21444 I chose dark roast was because I was told it is easier to dial in for beginner. And no preheating need when using robot. But good idea to try other beans. Thanks.

Don’t want to give up home coffee making (need some advice/ encouragement)

MWJB

Knluk Just list new shots please.

Try 50g out?.

If you need to extend the ratio, you understand that you will need to reduce dose size, if you can’t reliably hit more than 50g out? (change grind or dose, one at a time).

Knluk

MWJB ok. One change at a time. Just to make sure I understand your correctly. So you mean if I want to yield 50g liquid, I should use 16.7g coffee to maintain 1:3 ratio?

MWJB

Knluk First off, just try coarser & 50g out.

Then if you can’t shake disagreeable sourness, without also increasing bitterness (by grinding finer), try reducing the dose.

Knluk

Shot this morning. Can feel it start to be more drinkable. But also have problem:

Grind 2.2.1 (coarser than last shot)/ 1:3/ 16.7g to 50.1g, pull time: 15s/ 6 bar by feel [5.0/10] (taste wise a bit more balanced and more creamy)

This time I coarse the grind a little bit. But because the robot means to works in higher pressure. So I tied to use more pressure this time. So the pull time reduced to 15s. Wonder I should go back to finer or reduce pressure.

thanks!

MWJB

Knluk Don’t worry about the pressure.

Try coarser until you get unpleasant sourness/thin shots.

LMSC

Knluk Grind 2.2.1 (coarser than last shot)/ 1:3/ 16.7g to 50.1g, pull time: 15s/ 6 bar by feel [5.0/10] (taste wise a bit more balanced and more creamy)

By far, this was your best shot, unless I missed something, thanks to @MWJB. As FadedFrontiers advised you, please start at those parameters, take your temp at about 95c, and post the details of your shot and the score.

Furthermore, please don’t forget this :

MWJB Don’t worry about the pressure.

Try coarser until you get unpleasant sourness/thin shots.

It’s easy to get lost. You are doing great and being helped by those who have similar set ups, knows what it takes to get a good cup and also by our own go to person for coffee/brews/beans @MWJB. He is our Coffee / Brew God !

😊

Knluk

MWJB noted. I was kind of worried that the pull was too easy leading to inadequate extraction. So I tried to use the bathroom scale approach and make sure I make 40lb pressure. But then I found the shot very fast (15s to produce 50g liquid) even when the ready was 30lb. Will try coarser and see how it goes and report back.

FadedFrontiers

Cafelat Robot user here but I’m rather late to the thread, I’ve skimmed the other replies so apologies if I’ve missed or am repeating anything.

As others have mentioned, the thermal stability of the Robot is very good and the beans you’re using are dark. I know you mentioned you’re letting the water sit for 20 sec in the kettle but the temperature is unlikely to significantly decrease in that time in an insulated kettle. This will definitely be contributing to the bitter flavour - try a thermometer and aim for lower temps, you’ll be surprised at how much it improves the shot.

If you’re still struggling with bitter notes I’d shorten your brew ratio, decrease the pressure you apply (6 bar is fine) and finally decrease the preinfusion time. Don’t worry too much about brew times, but again with it being dark roast I’d guess shorter will be better. Finally do as you’re doing, change one variable at a time and record how different grind settings, ratios, temps all taste.

Also see if the cafe who brewed the espresso you liked with those beans can give any tips on how they do it.

As others have mentioned the Robot is a very good and capable machine (and the JX-pro a great hand grinder) but manual levers can be challenging even for experienced home brewers. It sounds like you’re on the right track so stick in there and please shout if you have any more questions or issues.

Knluk

FadedFrontiers

Thanks for the advice. Can’t wait to see the result after lower the temp. I actually taste some burnt taste in the bitter (with my untrained tongue) so maybe temp is really the cause. Do you also recommend me to fill the PF 1cm to full?

Re the pressure, I previously did underestimate how much force I should apply for 9 bar. After I put a bathroom scale underneath to check, I found I really have to muscle it down at the end. Will try 6 bar and reduce the length of shot and see how it goes. I think that will improve the brew time although it should not be the focus.

I will finish this bean in two days. Next ones will be medium dark and medium roast. How would you approach the first dial in in term of ratio?

thanks

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk After I put a bathroom scale underneath to check, I found I really have to muscle it down at the end.

Bear in mind that a lever (spring or manual) usually has a declining pressure profile, and this is generally seen as a positive characteristic. You may want to try NOT to maintain a steady 9 bar pressure through the very last seconds of the shot, and see if things improve. However, as others have said, change one thing at a time.

FadedFrontiers

Knluk no problem, I imagine you would have found the best grind setting before but the high temperature made it taste too bitter. It’s easily done.

Because of its design that minimises the contact (and heat transfer) from basket to portafilter, the Robot doesn’t drop temperature so quickly like the Flair. Off the boil water into the basket usually results in a starting brew temp of round 90c-ish so for your beans I would aim to lower the basket temp down gradually towards a minimum floor of 85c to see how that tastes.

Yes I usually find that filling the basket with water to around 1cm from top works fine. You can leave slightly less space at the top you just run the risk of spilling hot water when you lock it in. I can’t imagine this will affect taste dramatically unless you do what Hoffman did in his review and underfill it too far as that could make it harder to generate pressure.

You’ll soon get a feel for the pressure and it comes more naturally now you have an idea of the correct range. As CoyoteOldMan mentioned usually you build up to pressure quite quickly then you slowly decline towards the end of the shot, so don’t worry about sustaining the max pressure for any period of time. I usually go off the feel and flow from the basket and adjust accordingly but it took time and plenty of bad shots!

Once you dial in a few different roasts you’ll also end up defaulting to different starting parameters depending on your preferences, but I’d say aim for a 1:2 ratio for dark roasts and nearer 1:2.25 for medium ones (lowering the dose and raising the ratio and water temp for even lighter beans since they’re harder to extract). As mentioned the important thing is to keep your starting temperature, ratio and preinfusion consistent as you dial in the grind. Then tweak them one at a time to perfect the taste in cup.

Lastly don’t beat yourself up for a bad cup, just write down notes that you might find useful for next time so you can improve with the next attempt. Your shots look a lot better than what my early shots were like. Good luck!

Knluk

The best thing I got here besides the technical advice was the encouragement. Here you go for another experiment incorporating the valuable comments:

Same: beans/ tampering technique/ dosage (17.7g)

Change: coarser grind/ temp 92.1 degree Celsius (measured at kettle)/ zero preinfusion/ 1:2 ratio/ brew time

Learning: I cleaned and calibrated the JX Pro and I thought I set the same burrs gap. (Maybe I messed it up). However, it seems to me that the resultant ground is way too coarse (unless it is channelling, what do you think after viewing the clip below?)

So, I finished the pull at 9s with 4bar pressure at peak. The liquid is watery and bitter. Think I should make the grind setting much finer.

Another thing was I greatly underestimated how much force I should use for the indicative pressure eg 4bar/ 6bar. That’s why the shot became much faster now after I paid attention to it

Probably worthless to watch but here is the clip:

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk the resultant ground is way too coarse (unless it is channelling

One thing does not rule the other out; I think you have both: see the spritzing at 0:03 0 0:04 as well as the general speed of the shot and the not great taste result. Definitely grind finer!

FadedFrontiers

Knluk yes I would definitely go finer but I’d probably go with 95c at kettle as a rough starting temp for those beans (as it will drop immediately when it goes in the basket). I know it seems like a small amount but in my experience it can have a noticeable effect on taste.

Instead of working your way backwards grinding finer and finer again, it could be worthwhile finding the grind setting where you had the best shot and try that just with 95c kettle temp water. Then adjust accordingly, if it’s still too bitter, takes long, or requires a lot of pressure to pull the shot then go coarser with the grind, and vice versa.

LMSC

Knluk Please keep everything the same as per your last best shot, where you had scored 5/10. Change only the temperature to the required level.

Knluk

Thanks all for the helpful inputs. I have to sit down to think about my next trial. I still have the same beans for ⅔ shot to try. I have a fantasy that the Blackcat and Northstar beans will make a night and day difference

No matter what, through all the advices here, I start to get a little more sense on how I assess the espresso based on taste and get some improvement on the next shot. Although sometime it may be confusing but I think experience counts. Will report back my next shot if you don’t mind.

tompoland

I’ll say it again at the risk of sounding like a broken record: temperature is a significant determinant of flavor. And it’s tough to get it right with a manual lever.

It will help a lot to get yourself a temperature strip or BBQ thermometer because the group head draws a lot of heat out of the water even when you pour water in that has just boiled from a kettle. I’m aware that the makers of manual espresso machines (flair, portapresso and others) tend to downplay how important temperature is but I’ve found that it’s actually very important.

You’ll be able to make great coffee with the Robot but making a great shot consistently will require a lot of practice. But it is achievable. Good luck with your journey, I’m sure that with persistence you will enjoy some superb espresso.

LMSC

Agree with tompoland. It will help you a lot if you get at least a temp strip for your group. You will get an idea of what the prevailing temp is after the cold group has absorbed a few C. A pre-heated group vs a cold group does make a difference to the cup.

Once you get a shot, which you think you like, try and repeat the shot with the pre-heated group and the portafilter.

FadedFrontiers

LMSC tompoland

Agree with you both that understanding temperature is very important, but the usual E61 gadgets like temp strips won’t work on the Robot due to its design. There’s nowhere you can place it where it’s visible and will give meaningful temp reading.

A BBQ or digital thermometer could be more helpful for determining the water temp drop from kettle to inside the basket before you lock it in, but there’s also plenty of YouTube videos that explore that same subject (Cafelat has its own channel with several temp experiments, as do some of the reviews such as The Wired Gourmet).

For maximising your results long term it’s definitely important and worth delving into in detail but I also think this risks overcomplicating a the issue at hand.

Knluk

Would love to share the latest progress for some advice please.

I have just open a new bag of coffee - the Brazilian Blend from Blackcat. I think it is medium dark roast (although BC didn’t mention it in the package).

At the last shot of my old bean (on which I have been trying to dial in above), I was finally able to pull a shot with 7/10 score with 1:2, 15g in and 30g out with 1.7.0 grind size. The brew time was 20s and pressure was 30lb. So not ideal but taste reasonably good. So i am using the similar recipe today on the Brazil blend but start with grinding a bit finer due to the short brew time and not enough pressure above. Different beans but use as reference for starting point.

I pull 3 shots today. Btw the roast date was July 7th (7 day rest time). All three shots were 1:2, roughly 15g in and 30g out, 95c brew temp, 15s preinfusion. My plan was to identify the right grind size by achieving the ballpark pressure and brew time. And then I will fine tune maybe the dose or ratio, or other things. Here are the results:

1/ G1.5.2/ brew time: 40s @55lbs/ too fine, 1:2.0 <4.5/10>

2/ G1.6.2/ brew time: 31s @55lbs/ too fine/ 1:2.1 <4.6/10>

3/ G1.7.2/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <5.5/10>

For the first 2 shots, I know I should stick with 40lb but seems I can hardly extract considerable flow without adding more pressure. I ended up using 55lbs. For the third shot, due to some workflow issue, I did preinfused it for 22s. Just a note.

I think I had enough caffeine for today. :)

Will try 1.7.0 tomorrow. Seems will be okay by interpolation. Assuming i can achieve closer to 27s and 45lbs tomorrow, what else I can refine for the taste further?

Thanks again!

edit: btw the beans smells so nice! Smells so much better than my last oily beans. Also, I noticed there is much less small bean fracture in the bag compared to my last bag without roast date.

MWJB

Knluk My plan was to identify the right grind size by achieving the ballpark pressure and brew time. And then I will fine tune maybe the dose or ratio, or other things. Here are the results:

1/ G1.5.2/ brew time: 40s @55lbs/ too fine, 1:2.0 <4.5/10>

2/ G1.6.2/ brew time: 31s @55lbs/ too fine/ 1:2.1 <4.6/10>

3/ G1.7.2/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <5.5/10>

You have this a little backwards, pressure & time are fine tuning. Grind size & ratio are big drivers.

What makes you say shot 3 was too coarse, how do you know there’s not better to come (or not) if you don’t try coarser? You can always back track finer, if things go south.

When you get a noticeably improved shot, make few at those parameters to make sure things are consistent, before making more changes.

LMSC

Knluk

MWJB asked you to repeat the best shot you got so far!

When you get a noticeably improved shot, make few at those parameters to make sure things are consistent, before making more changes

Your best shot so far is

Knluk I was finally able to pull a shot with 7/10 score with 1:2, 15g in and 30g out with 1.7.0 grind size.

Have you repeated this to ensure consistently, which will give you confidence in your coffee making, the lever and amongst other things? It is always a good practice to stick to one beans for a period of time until you have gained enough experience and gain confidence.

We can understand you want to try other bags. It is fine if that’s you want to do. It is up to you! But, it gets harder as you swap the beans. As such the manual lever is hard to get used to and develop proficiency. You have worked very hard to some gain confidence. The result was the 7/10 shot. Please stick to that as advised by him.

Most of us always use the previous best parameters (temp, grind settings, ratio, …) as the default starting point when we dial in a different bag! It is likely to require only a few adjustments. :-)

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