Good day all. Thanks for the advice from a kind member here to start a thread. I have owned my setup since Jul 7th after some time of research. Failing to get an acceptable result, I was so frustrated and pull 4 shots straight with even more terrible result. I then went to look at the return policy on the equipment but hope to get some advice before I give up. In term of setup, I have a Cafelat Robot manual lever and my grinder is the 1zpresso JX-Pro. Beans is from pact, the dark roast espresso 7 days after brew date. I acquired my understanding on espresso making via YouTube, including Hoffmann’s espresso series. Since I owned the setup, I have been trying to dial in the coffee from grind setting 2.40 down to 1.45. I tried each with an interval of 0.025. According to Hoffman, I should try to find the finest grind size where I still can achieve minimal channeling. Today, I tried go down to 1.45 and I choked the robot. I checked on a bathroom scale and it was 110lb force, where people suggested 25lb translated to 9bar. Even with 110lb pressure, I barely pull out 10g and I started to worried breaking the Robot. I did suspect I basically dislike espresso. But I went to cafe and tried the automatic machine in the office. Even the espresso from the automatic machine impressed me … Here are my workflow: 1/ weight 18g bean … 2/ grind and transfer to PF … 3/ obsessively prepare the puck with wdt and tampering with moderate pressure … 4/ add boiling water to basket 5mm to full … 5/ light pressure pull and preinfusion for 15s after seeing coffee wet all holes … 6/ pull for 25 - 30s with uniform pressure until getting 36g espresso … 7/ stir and drink … 8/ (always) another failure. I was getting barely acceptable shot at 2.10 grind size but far from what is good. The espresso I got from automatic machine was way better. And when I go finer, the bitterness was striking. The reason why I told myself not settle on 2.1 was because people told me they use 1.30 to 1.60 for JX-Pro. I am totally confused. any advice will be appreciated.

Here is the 1.65 grind size pull. I lift weight and I was trying to pull pretty hard in order to finish the shot at 25s. https://youtu.be/nJUcR9PlyxQ [URL=https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0R1Sf5F.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"Knluk"#591 I have no idea how this lever works. There is a user guide on the Cafelat site. You may want to read [this](https://www.cafelat.co.uk/blogs/cafelat-robot-manual/robot-tips) First, your puck prep is good as I see the beading is good and mostly uniform throughout the screen. Second, it takes a good 25s for you to start getting a pour, unless I’m missing something. Third, the shot is too long. You want to aim for 35s-40s. If this is a dark roast, then 25s-30s. These include PI time as well. Fourth, if the grind setting is 1.65 turns on your grinder for that video shot, loosen the grind further. Fifth, If the shot is tasting bitter, loosening the grind will help. However, are you pre-heating the water chamber and filter? If not, the hot water when you fill the cold chamber would no longer be hot enough. Am sure, somebody with more knowledge of this machine will chip in.

Why are you sure that you need a 1:2 brew ratio? Is this what the coffee you like is brewed at? Ratio is an assumption of strength/concentration, not a mark of quality/guarantee of good flavour….in fact, trying to pull all coffees that short is going to cause you problems. Coarsen up your grind setting. start pulling shots a bit longer, maybe 1:3 or 1:3.5. Don't be so focused on time, concentrate on the grind setting and the weight in the cup. If you have 15s of preinfusion you can still get tasty cups with another 10-15s on top of that (count the whole shot time, don't break it down, just do the preinfusion consistently). Score each cup, doesn't need to be complicated but give it a number, then average up the number over the last few shots, so when you make changes you can see if the average goes up, or down. The picture of the shot doesn't help, you can't see tasty, there 'is no way to troubleshoot that. So stick with 18g, record grind setting, weight of shot in the cup, total shot time (but don't kill a shot by time) & score. Don't get into a frenzy and make a bunch of shots in one go, just a couple if the first is not good enough to drink. Report back after each one, otherwise it's too easy to lose your way with back & forth adjustments and not make sense of what is going on. If 2.1 tasted best, maybe go a bit coarser, don't worry what other people do, do what you need to do to get a good cup.

To add manual levers are very hard to use too.

July 7th, as in, today? You can't give up on day one! 😅 So I got a robot only last week, and I absolutely love it. Rather than being difficult I've actually found it to be very forgiving. I also have a JX Pro. I'd say the beans I'm currently using are medium roast, and I'm at 1.4.3 (3rd dot) on the JX. I'm using 18g and pulling to a 1:2.5 - 1:3 ratio. I have the barista version and do the pre-infusion at 2 bar, followed by the rest of the shot at 6, perhaps tapering off slightly towards the end. These shots are landing somewhere in the 40 to 50 second range, which may seem long, but I'm getting very balanced results with this! 🤷♂️ I wouldn't go mad with the pressure, Paul from Cafelat suggests 6-7 bar, it sounds like you are far too fine for these beans. For me 6 bar feels comfortable, trying to get 8 or 9 bar is hard work, and difficult to maintain smoothly. You don't have to preheat the Robot, certainly not for dark roast and if you use water straight from the boil. If your beans are proper dark then you might even consider using water 10 - 20 seconds off the boil? Could you get a hold of some of the beans used in the automatic in work? I think this would be very helpful to compare. Don't give up, the Robot is a fantastic piece of kit, and very capable of making tasty espresso!

@"MWJB"#p21435 thanks. Lots of sound advices and I will give them a go. for the 1:2 ratio, I read so many people recommended it for beginner with 18g coffee. I just want to keep a few variable constant and focus on getting the grinder setting right. I have never tried other ratio, except that I tried 1:1.9 for experiment. It was even worse shot. Will try more ratio and report back.

@"Cuprajake"#p21436 before I made the purchase, I did read review and people said it is very forgiving and can produce coffee at par with expensive machine. I hope my learning curve is just a little steeper.

I don’t have any knowledge of manual lever machines but as others have said it’s probably a good idea to grind coarser, especially as you’re using a dark roast. Hoffman prefers lighter roasts and his guidance of grinding as fine as you can before you see excessive channeling is not something I would necessarily apply to a dark roast, which is more soluble and extracts much easier. It’s also possible that you prefer a medium or medium/dark roast. Something to explore in the future Don’t give up! It takes a while to get the hang of it; I’m still trying to figure many things out.

@"Bicky"#p21441 Thx for the encouragement. I am super motivated that you made good shot at early stage. Maybe I just took the wrong approach to start. your 1.4.3 sort of reaffirm me that my JX-Pro is really different from many others. I tried close the burrs and the setting read -0.1.0 (passed the zero by one number). The fact that you can pull comfortably at 1.4.3 really shocked me. I am sure even if I hand stand on it, the arm won’t move. I also think I should try to have a longer shot. The reason why I didn’t do so was I had some bitter shot and I learnt that the third part of the espresso is bitter. So if I pull a longer shot, it will become more bitter. I therefore tried 1:1.9 and it tasted like shit. Really getting no way to go. I tried to think of the problem in a more logical way. I understand I may not getting the temperature/ pressure/ or some minor thing perfect, but I have pulled 20 shots already. It won’t be that back unless I did something wrong fundermentally? From what I read from the comments here, it may probably the grind size and ratio. I admitted that I may not get even close to right for these two aspects.

@"HVL87"#p21444 I chose dark roast was because I was told it is easier to dial in for beginner. And no preheating need when using robot. But good idea to try other beans. Thanks.

Don’t want to give up home coffee making (need some advice/ encouragement)

MWJB

Knluk As you grind coarser, pressure reduces, that’s normal. You have the ability to tweak your pressure, most don’t.

Focus on the taste vs grind setting, too coarse a grind will produce weaker, sharp/tart coffee…in whatever time that takes.

Knluk

MWJB it seems like my dial in journey is much longer than others :( I tried 3 shots today:

4/ G1.8.0/ brew time: 15s @15lbs/ 1:2.2 <2.5/10> Significant channelling, watery shot

5/ G1.8.3/ brew time: 8s @20lbs/ 1:2.1 <3.0/10> Channelling and watery

(I also tried a backward shot by going finner than the last shot yesterday)

6/ G1.7.0/ brew time: 17s @28lbs/ too coarse/ 1:2.1 <4.0/10> Some channeling

I can’t get any implication from the shots on which direction I wanna go for the next shots. Should I continue going coarser or finer? The only reason I can think about the confusing result is puck prep. But I think I am reasonably careful on puck prep what I did was WDF the ground in robot basket, from bottom to mid, to top grind try to stir a bit more to redistribute even the ground and avoid void in middle I then use the tamper to tamper the coffee by fingers I lower my body at the same level as the top of the basket so I can make adjustment during tamper if the handle of the tamper is not at 90 degree to the opening of the basket I didn’t use lots of force but only a firm downward pressure to tamper.

Again, appreciate any feedback or advice you may have thanks

MWJB

Knluk I’m at a loss as to why yesterday’s shot at 1.7.2 was 5.5 & the best you had up to that point, but now 1.7.0 is too coarse & 4.0 ?

Don’t fret over perceived channelling.

Make some more at 1.7.2 see how they average.

I don’t WDT.

LMSC

Knluk

MWJB asked you to repeat the best shot you got so far!

When you get a noticeably improved shot, make few at those parameters to make sure things are consistent, before making more changes

Your best shot so far is

Knluk I was finally able to pull a shot with 7/10 score with 1:2, 15g in and 30g out with 1.7.0 grind size.

Have you repeated this to ensure consistently, which will give you confidence in your coffee making, the lever and amongst other things? It is always a good practice to stick to one beans for a period of time until you have gained enough experience and gain confidence.

We can understand you want to try other bags. It is fine if that’s you want to do. It is up to you! But, it gets harder as you swap the beans. As such the manual lever is hard to get used to and develop proficiency. You have worked very hard to some gain confidence. The result was the 7/10 shot. Please stick to that as advised by him.

Most of us always use the previous best parameters (temp, grind settings, ratio, …) as the default starting point when we dial in a different bag! It is likely to require only a few adjustments. :-)

Knluk

MWJB I have the same feeling. Made me feel directionless. Make I should try something totally different on what I am trying …

Knluk

MWJB could you share your best practise for puck prep? I made little improvement from time to time. Almost eliminated all channelling previously. But now appears in many of the shots.

Knluk

LMSC I switched to new beans most because the last bag (no roast date) was bought as emergency while I am resting my new beans.

I repeated the best shot on the Blackcat Brazil but very bad outcome. I will stick with this bean until it is used up. And then will move to the Chocolate Blend (I have 500g of that) so I will have more beans to dial in. I think I need much longer time than average people to learn the dial in. I talked to people in the Robot group, vast majority of them got very good shot in the first shot after purchasing the Robot 🙀 and they sound relatively careless on puck prep/ temp, etc. so I keep on thinking what I did wrong fundamentally but really not clue.

With lots of failure feeling today, I went to just another local cafe. They’ve got La Marzocco machine and VA grinder. I had a double espresso, which was fruity and nice sourness. I presume they are not a particular specialty cafe as half of the shop sells nuts, organic dried fruit, …. But the nice coffee shows me how much improvement I can achieve if I keep trying. (Btw, will ask them the beans they used once I finish the Brazil, CB , and Dock Blend).

thanks guys! Really appreciate the advice and discussion. I think I should just clear up some mind flog and find a new starting point to dial in the Brazil before it is used up.

MWJB

Knluk Firstly I don’t worry about what people call “channeling” if the shots taste good, I use a PF with spouts, or a bigger cup to catch the spritzes.

I grind to the cup/catch cup of the grinder, shake the grinds then dump them into the PF basket via funnel, tap straight down a couple of times, then 2 or 3 sideways taps (heel of hand on side of PF) to level the bed, tamp once straight down, straight up & out, brew.

How would you score the shot from the LM at the nut shop?

Knluk

MWJB that sounds like a great suggestion to experience. The robot comes with a sing spout PF. Will use it and see how it goes by not seeing.

I will also try your puck prep approach. Sounds very simple but less is more I guess. I also tapped the sides of the PF (which is also the basket for Robot). But eg when I tap the right ride, I will see there is a small gap between the puck and the right side of the PF. I then tap the other side and ended up tapping 7-8 times. I didn’t actually count but I tap 360 degree until I see no gap and the puck is level.

After tapping the sides a couple of times, do you normally get a level surface? Or i shouldn’t aim for a very level surface as it will be taken care of by tampering?

also, will you try to break the clumps if you see it?

I will try new puck prep tomorrow and start everything from the last best shot I have at grind setting 1.7.0.

The cafe one I tried today was a 8.5/10. I be a happy man if I can continue pull that kind of short with one type of bean.

MWJB

Knluk Clumps should be broken up when you shake the grinds in the grinder cup.

Try and get the grounds into the basket without big voids at the sides, after a couple of sideways taps, yes the puck is level enough to tamp.

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk I may be completely wrong, and I’m no great expert, but I’m thinking you may be overprepping… the more you “mix” with WDT and tapping, the more you will get fine particles moving to the bottom of the puck and a (not) nice sorting of progressively coarser particle as you get to the top. The sorting takes surprisingly little time/effort to happen, but it’s not a good thing.

FadedFrontiers

Knluk I would stick with the bottomless basket as the spouted PF will reduce the temperature of your shots unless you preheat it. You can also get a better idea of what’s happening with a bottomless, especially with preinfusion (as the basket slowly starts dripping), even though you shouldn’t let some channeling make you think that the grind is incorrect!

I also think your shots seem messier because it’s a lighter roasted coffee and so is harder to extract as easily. With a very dark roast this may look nicer to the eye and extract easier because its more soluble, but a lighter coffee can cause more issues to fully extract. I don’t think your preparation will necessarily be getting worse. It takes time and patience so just try to stay consistent with everything you do and change one setting (grind) for the time being.

With the shot you grinded finest but there were channels, did you taste bitterness like with the last coffee beans?

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan have fun in France!

This sounds probably the cause. I recently home made a WDT tool with wine cork and sewing needles. I stir in small circular motions from bottom (really touching and scratching the bottom of the PF) to top because I learnt the importance of even distribution.

Re the clumps, I kept thinking why I had quite a bit of clumps maybe because I tap the sides of the grinder and also tap the bottoms and the bottom corners of the collecting cup attaching to the grinder to the table pretty strongly to try to get the last big out from the burrs. Because I saw some particles between the burrs. I did it for 15-20 times depending on mood. I developed this habit gradually and maybe this slowly impact my puck condition.

Knluk

FadedFrontiers thanks. Good point on the temp.

Yes. It is mainly the striking bitterness we cannot get rid of. And yes- from the colour, it is a pretty lighter roast compared to the oily bean I had before

I think one of the tricky part confused me before was the relationship between grind size/ pressure/ time. Eg when I could get close to acceptable pressure (day 5-6 bar) and time (eg 30s), but the taste is bitter, should I use to coarser grind. But when i continued to move to the grinder size, either or both of the pressure and time will change to a funny level. But I got it now that I should ignore the pressure and time first. Still not sure what will happen next but the beautify of this forum is I can restart and report back the progress step by step for advice. I will restart from 1.7.0 grind today.

Knluk

Continue working on the Brazil beans today. I kind of doing some unlearn and relearn here and try to do simpler puck prep for better extraction. However, I still find quite significant clumps most of the time even after tapping the grind collector lightly and tapping the sides of the PF 3-4 times. And up and down tapping the bottom of the bottom of the PF to the table mat. So I lightly use WDT to break down the whole surface section to get rid of the clumps.

I tried to give it a bit more patience this time and changed grind size really marginally. So not much more observable indication can be drawn. But at least I improved my reporting skills :)))

(Texture: 10 is thickness, 5 is medium, and I prefer 6-7)

During the pull, I did not pay any attention on channelling , brew time and pressure. But I watched the filter bottom video afterwards and report anyway (10/10 means channeling free)

Any comments will be highly appreciated

MWJB

Knluk How do you propose to influence the “thickness”? This would normally be achieved by grinding finer (which increases bitterness) and/or pulling shorter. (It’s not something I would personally aim for as short, thick shots can get in the way of the flavour, but everyone has different preferences).

The shot that channelled more tasted better (or at least no worse), so ignore what you think is channeling (it probably isn’t).

Isn’t your pressure in pounds, not bar?

Knluk

MWJB Thanks! Make a lot of sense regarding thickness.

I re-examine the video of the last shot today. I think the flow is not as full compared to the dark roast. And weaker in some of the hole but you are right that there is no channeling. Not sure how I made that remark :) . I probably just prefer the beauty of the full of crema flow. But that’s not as key as the taste.

Yes. Should be in pound. But I just take it by feel. Don’t want to overcomplicate it as advised by you before.

Does it make sense to go coarse? Appreciate that.

LMSC

Knluk It’s a good shot, although the beading starts on the top and left to right on the video. This suggests a potential weaker spot on the top and left as per the video. But, I will be happy with that and won’t worry about your WDT. This just leaves one doubt if you are actually confusing the natural bitterness in the espresso with medicinal bitterness. Is it medicine or a paracetamol bitter?

Knluk

LMSC cool. That means I just not familiar with the relatively light roast beading only.

Hm… honestly I am not good at describing taste. But I think it lean more toward to the medicine like bitterness and the after taste bitterness leaves there long. Compared to the expresso I had in cafe (where I prefer slightly more bitterness than sourness), it is different but not hugely different by nature. But the bitterness in my shot Is definitively striking and not pleasant. Sorry I cannot describe it better. But I appreciate your help.

If my beading is okay, I will then move to coarser to try until the shot got problem such as very watery and extremely short brew time. And at that time if I still have this Brazil beans left, I will go another direction to try something coarser than the start point, ie 1.7.0. Make sense?

Knluk

FadedFrontiers sure thing. Do as instructed :)

The first shot was similar to yesterday’s. Temp was reduced from 95c to 93c and increase dosage from 15g to 16g. Also, preinfusion was shortened to 5s.
The second shot - I further increase dosage to 18g. This showed observable improvement. Still bitter but less striking and less long lasting. But LMSC i paid attention to it. Yes- I am pretty sure that it is me medicine like bitterness. But this shot is marginally drinkable. I don’t enjoy it much. But I will drink it when I crave for coffee. Also, notice some floral smell and after taste. But lack of sweetness.
Third shot - I kept everything the same but with some confidence built up(?) I decided to coarse up the grinder by one click and pretty confident that it will show slightly improvement. But it returned to the level of yesterdays. Pretty frustrating for this :( Below is the video of the last shot.

With my fast speed wasting bean (but I appreciate all the learning), I will use up my Brazil bean in a day or two. Plan to stick to the best shot today and try to pull a shorter shot. My thinking is to get rid of the last part of the shot which is bitter. Does it make sense to all fellow members here?

FadedFrontiers

Knluk I would try pulling this grind setting again but with less preinfusion time, see how that tastes. If it’s still bitter try lowering temp by a degree or two (temp may also be worth adding to your chart too to keep track of).

I also recommend you up the dose from 15g to 16 or 17g of coffee. The Robot is capable of doing doses as small as 12-14g but I’ve always found those harder to get the most out of. It’s far more forgiving with larger doses which I imagine is down to the depth of the basket.

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