I thought I'd try and get a handle on this much used term "clarity", I've got to be honest, it's not going well. The quality of coffee I have received lately seems to make such endeavours rather moot. Using V60 02 with drip assist, grinders are Niche, Wilfa flat, Lido 2 with the Kinu brew burr rather than original Italmill inner burr. So far, the Wilfa cups are the worst, Lido/Kinu BB next best (going a tad coarser with both these), Niche tastiest, only 1 coffee out of 4 has had produced recognisable notes. Google doc here, questions & suggestions welcome: [V60 clarity](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EHOgUEmHBW7dg9rWpXxhia099p3RildCpgrT_W673V8/edit?usp=sharing)

@"MWJB"#p21582 I hope you persist with this clarity experiment. Of the all the brews, just two of them scored 8 as you had observed some flavours. Those two posted maximum yields! I wonder what will happen to flavour, if you were to focus on maximising the yield. Another thought is some of the hand grinders - even conicals - can produce relatively brighter cup. A good example is JX Pro. I don’t have another grinder to compare, but I know the cup is on the brighter side even if the beans are medium or medium dark. Please note that I am using the term brighter loosely here as conicals tend to focus on the body. 😊

> @"LMSC"#p21585 A good example is JX Pro. I don’t have another grinder to compare, but I know the cup is on the brighter side even if the beans are medium or medium dark How can you tell if you never compared?

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p21587 I am always careful when some one like you or David asks questions like this; they can come loaded and can be a trap! 🤣 Like Clarity, brightness is also complicated IMO. I am keep trying to keep it simple by the taste and acidity. A video of grinder comparison over Niche i posted elsewhere here also indicated the shots off this grinder is on the brighter side. I won’t get into brightness over different grinders. That’s a minefield and I won’t / don’t want to get blown to pieces! 😊 I also think the Evo is partly responsible for this. Perhaps, you can bring your Niche one day to compare! 😊

@"LMSC"#p21590 It wasn’t a loaded question. I just find “interesting” how can you say the JX Pro produces a “brighter cup” yet you have no baseline to compare against in terms of grinders. In simple words, how can you tell the cup is on the brighter side? 👍

**``` > @"MediumRoastSteam"#p21591 you tell the cup is on the brighter side? 👍 It’s the flavour and taste. I am not comparing grinders. It’s a comparison of what I find versus what I find on the bag. Of course, there are other ambiguities that can influence the taste or flavour. Say, a bag mentions dark chocolate and nuts. Fair, if you expect a full and a creamy body. The black can have chocolate with a twist of dark chocolate bitterness. Adding milk could ooze nuts. You may expect the cup be less acidic. What if you get these notes and also a cup having not a low acidity but a medium acidity? We say a sour note. If I tell you it is not sour, it’s pleasant, sweet and not mouth puckering. I have had lots of espressos and brewed heavy and full-bodies cups. I always find the acidity is on the higher side be it espresso or brews with this grinder. The evo blows up the acidity on the left (Lets not worry about ratios or other moving variables to counter it). The cup is lovely to drink. That’s why I think the machines likes Evo exposes the limitations of grinders like Jx Pro. It is a lovely grinder for espresso and brews, but perhaps not fit for purpose when we have machines like Evo. 😊

> @"LMSC"#p21585 Of the all the brews, just two of them scored 8 as you had observed some flavours. Those two posted maximum yields! I wonder what will happen to flavour, if you were to focus on maximising the yield. The yields there were high, but only in the context that the coffee was a higher extracting Ethiopian, which will average higher than say the Guat, it was also the cleanest roast. It's easy to simply increase EY, you grind finer, but if the grind you have is already silty that's going to offset any gains in clarity with more silt. Highest extraction so far was a poor brew from the Burundi, silt & film obscured any distinct notes (hence I have set the Lido/Kinu coarser, this may yet prove to be a mistake as it's not an issue I have had with other coffees). To put it context, previous brews with this regime & Niche were averaging 8.00, so I think the grinder and EY of these recent brews are not showing any clear trend, above noise, in the face of the coffee quality. To recap Hoffmann said the Wilfa gave him higher clarity than the Fellow Ode, Rowsell said the opposite, Wendelboe said the Wilfa was better than a Vario with Ditting burrs…so no help there.

Clarity in pour over brewing

LMSC

MWJB So, the lack clarity / flavour notes is because of the roasts darker than expected, is it not ? If the bags are not fit for purpose because the notes are perhaps lost when roasted darker, it is not going to deliver the notes, or is it?

While it is one matter why the roasts have become darker in recent years,
I also think how many roasters in our country have necessary and sufficient skills to (1) roast to the desired level to get the notes mentioned in the green bag, (2) cup them properly, and (3) verify they are indeed getting what’s mentioned in the greens.

Another unanswered doubt is do they actually cup when they get a bag of greens or just roast and mention the notes stated on the green bag?. 😊

MWJB

LMSC “fit for purpose ” is a bit subjective and a hard case to argue, you get hot brown coffee drink out in all circumstances :-). The Ethiopian was what I’d call a typical filter roast (but not nearly as light as I have had in the past), still the others seemed darker.

I can’t comment on what they do, I have asked and never received an enlightening response beyond, “we roast a bit darker these days…” (for various reasons).

Overall, my initial take away is that if the roast isn’t clean, you can’t have “clarity” added farther down the line (that’s if my perception of clarity matches with anyone elses).

DavecUK

LMSC Another unanswered doubt is do they actually cup when they get a bag of greens or just roast and mention the notes stated on the green bag?. 😊

I suspect this might be very common.

LMSC

DavecUK might be very common.

Did you imply this ?

Reproduce the notes from the green beans bag than cupping to see if their roasts actually deliver the flavour.

DavecUK

LMSC Did you imply this ?

No??

MWJB

Three more brews added to the google sheet. Need to go yet coarser with the Wilfa, but brews are already becoming more sour.

MWJB

Three more brews added, this is without doubt the most soul destroying thing I’ve ever done with respect to coffee…stumble on a clunker of a bean, then have to make 2 more brews!

First world problems eh! :-)

MWJB

10 brews with each of 3 grinders (Niche, Wilfa flat & Lido 2 with Kinu brew burr) all now done.

What have I learnt?

If the roast is off, it doesn’t matter what you grind with.
If the notes are off, you may still enjoy tasty cups even if they don’t taste quite like the supplier says they will.
Clarity, if I have experienced it here, is a double edged sword, because you might like one note particularly, another not so much…but if clearer, then they stand out more.

I’ll do some sifting over the next few days and see if that reveals anything.

MWJB

Kruve sift results now posted for Wilfa flat & Niche, not a lot to say really, essentially the same at 400 & 900 Kruve, then the Niche catches a little less under 1200, with slightly more grinds between 1200 & 1600 Kruve, Then less particles than Wilfa flat over 1600 (Niche 12%, Wilfa 15%).

I got the feeling that I needed to go coarser on the Wilfa to clean things up, but going coarser than 34 resulted in more sourness in cups…maybe because of the higher % of grinds over 1600 Kruve making cups taste under relatively under-extracted?

MWJB

Sift results for Lido 2 with Kinu brew burr now added. This has the tightest distribution of the 3 grinders, this grinder also had the edge on clarity specifically, whether it was welcome, or not.

PortafilterProcrastinator

MWJB Have you used many manual grinders? I’m quite seriously toying with getting one for holidays/ trips etc - would be interested I your experience if you’ve got much.

MWJB

PortafilterProcrastinator Yes, I have a dozen or so hand grinders, but there’s always more coming out all the time. What brew methods are you anticipating using on these trips & how many are you planning to brew for/what dose size at any one time?

PortafilterProcrastinator

MWJB wow, that’s quite a collection. V60 and CCD, two people max - v60 I tend to brew 18g, could grind twice? CCD I’ll brew as big as I can. Cheers

MWJB

OK, so don’t waste your time with with the cheaper ceramic burr grinders, they’ll take an age to grind for a large CCD brew (max about 30g).

A Feldgrind would do the job, or a 1Z Presso JX (not for espresso), or a Lido 3/Lido OG but these are fairly large grinders compared to previous 2 mentioned and have the excellent Etzinger burrs. A Lido E or an OG would be needed if you fancied using it for espresso. The OG (2.3lb in weight) allows you to change quickly from coarser (V60) to fine (CCD) settings.

PortafilterProcrastinator

MWJB cheers, that’s really helpful. No espresso need for this one.

As much as I’d love one, I think the OG will be over budget. I’ll look in to the others in more detail. Knock still have some seconds on ebay, seems like such a good price.

I can’t imagine I’ll be able to articulate the differences between my niche and whatever I end up getting, but I might give it go (whenever that might be)