Hi all I’ve dropped down the rabbit hole of making my own water after using Waitrose Lockhills for a while. My local water is terrible, enough to scale a kettle within a few uses and I’m looking to get a decent espresso machine in the next few months (a Bianca if I can talk myself and the missus into it!) so I want to start off from a good place. I’ve read the various discussions about water on lots of different forums including the Barista Hustle recipes and I’ve looked at Rob1’s hardness spreadsheets and MWJB’s mixing spreadsheet (thanks very much both for your work on those). I’ve played around with the hardness spreadsheet and I’m not sure I completely understand it. If I put in 40.1 for Bicarbonate and 68.6 for Magnesium (the SCA recipe if I’m reading it right) I end up with an alkalinity of 32.88 but a hardness of 282.5 which seems like a big number. The LI is .16 but I have no idea if that is very high or “normal”? My Zerowater TDS reading from my tap water is 350 for what it is worth - probably very little I know. The second and main question is, where do people get food grade Epsom Salts from? I can see it is available from Amazon but I’m leery of ordering anything “food grade” from there as I have no idea where is has been manufactured or whether there are any contaminants in it. Are there any shops on your average UK high street where you can buy it? Rightly or wrongly I presume that if I buy it down my local shop it is probably subject to some sort of regulation (I’m probably naïve!) whereas with Amazon who knows. I’ve read enough Amazon horror stories with toys etc. to put me off from buying food supplements from there. Maybe I’m just better mixing it with my tap water (very hard, I live in Bucks) or diluting it with a particular bottled water? Sorry I’ve looked but haven’t come across a ZeroWater mixing chart, I appreciate it isn’t dissimilar to distilled though. Thanks for any advice Ollie

Tanot Welcome to the forum Bianca is a nice machine and hopefully @Rob1 our water expert will be along to advise.

Tanot - not answering your question directly, but, if you want to start easy, just add 0.1g of sodium bicarbonate - aka baking soda - available at any supermarket, to 1L of water. All you need is a scale precise to 2 decimal places. If your scale is is precise to 1 decimal place, then add 1g to 100ml (100g) of Zero water. And that’s your concentrate. Then add 10ml (10.1g) of that concentrate to 1L of Zero Water or to 990ml if you want to be precise. I’m not 😊👍

Thanks both, I do have a scale accurate to 2 decimal places (it is for baking occifer) so I’m heading to the supermarket tomorrow to get some baking soda. We tried a blind taste test with our tap water and the Zero earlier and my missus immediately identified the Zero and said it was very different and basically flat. Oddly my daughter preferred it but she is only 7! I think I read somewhere during my over extensive research into this that the hardness “ions” give the coffee something to bind to (sorry if that is absolute horse s*&T, I could be making it up or completely misremembering something) so I presume I’d be missing something if I go with no hardness at all? The Bianca is probably way over the top for me - a few coffees a day, mainly milk based. Have been getting along fine with a V60, Moka pot and Clever ever since I got into coffee during the first lockdown but the idea of a home machine appeals to me and I don’t want to have buyer’s remorse a year down the line if I go for a “lesser” machine. I liked the Minima based mainly on Dave’s reviews and videos but it seems like they are problematic to get hold of now.

Tanot where do people get food grade Epsom Salts from? Most supermarkets store pharmaceutical-grade salts - meant for baths, but they should be pure enough for consumption (especially since MgSO 4 is still used as a laxative, which is a pharmaceutical use). If you want something that is specifically marked (and marketed) as ‘food grade’, this is what I bought. Tanot I presume I’d be missing something if I go with no hardness at all? If you polled this, you’d get at least two opinions per person… I personally prefer having a bit of magnesium (or calcium), but a lot of people go with bicarbonate or even pure de-ionised. Try different combinations, and see what you like. Tanot I liked the Minima based mainly on Dave’s reviews and videos but it seems like they are problematic to get hold of now. Order direct from ACS. Not problematic at all; what may be more problematic is that the warranty is going to be parts-only, but they are well built, and have been in production for quite a while, so not likely to go wrong soon after purchase.

Two for sale used should you wish The Bianca is a fantastic machine and comes with everything bar a grinder to get you going I use to water with potassium bicarbonate, this may not give the perfect recipe but it I’ll give zero scale in the machine, a compromise I’m happy to take. That’s called the Dr pavlis water.

Tanot Welcome to the forum. You have got a plenty of great tips and recommendations. You can’t go wrong with Minima and Bianca. If you are going to add a paddle to Minima, you may as well pay a little more and get the B. As Jake said, please look at our classifieds; you have got some cracking deals. Re-water, I won’t bother about epsom salt. We have Osmio Zero. We feed straight as it comes with re-mineralisation kit. Touch wood, no issues so far. Good luck with your purchases.

I use intralabs for all my salts, used them from the days when I used to mix dosing salts for my marine tank. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301393907091?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=SKPT5Fq4T_i&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=8nPtpNt4SJC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Tanot I think I read somewhere during my over extensive research into this that the hardness “ions” give the coffee something to bind to (sorry if that is absolute horse s*&T" @Tanot "#p22299 If I put in 40.1 for Bicarbonate and 68.6 for Magnesium (the SCA recipe if I’m reading it right) I end up with an alkalinity of 32.88 but a hardness of 282.5 which seems like a big nu What is the recipe exactly? You’ve definitely read that somewhere but probably haven’t seen any proof.

Tanot I’ve played around with the hardness spreadsheet and I’m not sure I completely understand it. If I put in 40.1 for Bicarbonate and 68.6 for Magnesium (the SCA recipe if I’m reading it right) I end up with an alkalinity of 32.88 but a hardness of 282.5 which seems like a big number. The SCAA standard is 40mg/L total alkalinity and an ideal of 68mg/L total hardness (17-85mg/L range) as CaCO3.

I use 10000x concentrates in dropper bottles and mix up water as and when I need it from zero water jugs. I really liked jkim makes video for explaining water: The EAF wiki he linked also has great info. https://espressoaf.com/guides/water.html Jkim also has a new video out on water dialling with drops on top of the puck so that recipes that would be corrosive to the boiler can be used with minimal risk. Recommend giving this one a watch too.

DIY coffee water and Zerowater

Cuprajake

Yeah in the area it’s dropped

DavecUK

I could imagine some bright spark 🙂 inventing mineral infused filter papers, where’s MCD when you need him. Perhaps Webber’s next addition to their super expensive, but being taken seriously unifilter, or whatever it’s called.

LMSC

l am thinking if spraying all over the puck’s surface would be better than 3-4 drops. But, am not sure if this would be as good as the pre-mixed water.

DavecUK

LMSC A potential Weber product in the making🤣

LMSC

DavecUK potential Weber product in the making

We have too many good ideas here ! Hope they give a donation to the freeflarum! 😂😉

LMSC

DavecUK
Giphy - Loop Pay Me GIF

Cuprajake

i just see it as a problem if being applied to the puck, it needs to be part of the water imo, so unless you can have a device that adds it up stream of the puck away from the boiler then i guess its a flawed system,

add to this if you can really taste one drop of this in a 60ml brew then you’re a better taster than me.

for me its more faf than its worth-

LMSC

Cuprajake Another variable to complicate clarity, body, texture and flavour!

Tanot

Thanks everyone, sorry I posted this and promptly went on holiday - AFK! Looks like the discussions went off at a tangent which is always good on forums :)

@MWJB is right it is the SCA recipe from here https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-redux/

@MediumRoastSteam thanks for the suggestion on .1g per 1L. I have the bicarbonate of soda already. That seems very high (everything is relative of course!) though compared to 0.04g as per the SCA, is that because it can take more alkalinity if it doesn’t have any hardness in it?

I will get an order in with some of the recommended suppliers for Mg.

@Rob1 I will try to track down where I heard the pseudoscience :)

As to buying a second hand Minima, although it is temping I don’t know if that would sit right with me. I know what I’m like and there would always be the feeling that, because I didn’t have it from new, anything that went wrong might be because it was second hand. I own other second hand things (my motorbike for instance) but something about the potential scaling issues makes me nervous. Maybe if I could guarantee that the previous owner only used pristine water from the holy river Ganges or something (😉joke, I know that would be a terrible idea).

As to importing a machine, from a thread that, again, I saw on some forum that I can’t remember - the Minima ended up costing somebody an extremely significant import tax what with VAT etc, from what I remember it ended up not much short of a new Bianca but again that could be hazy memory.

Thanks again everyone

Ollie

CoyoteOldMan

Tanot As to importing a machine, from a thread that, again, I saw on some forum that I can’t remember - the Minima ended up costing somebody an extremely significant import tax what with VAT etc, from what I remember it ended up not much short of a new Bianca but again that could be hazy memory.

It definitely is hazy memory - or somebody who doesn’t understand how importing things works. Black Cat Coffee lists Minima at £1300 or thereabouts in the UK, including UK VAT and a retailer warranty, which means a ‘retail’ price from ACS below £1000, on which one would have to pay 20% VAT. There is no way this is going to become the £2000 or so that one needs for a Bianca.

The question is whether you value more the saving (and possibly the faster delivery) of the import/direct manufacturer order, or the peace of mind of the retailer warranty.

Tanot .1g per 1L. I have the bicarbonate of soda already. That seems very high (everything is relative of course!) though compared to 0.04g as per the SCA, is that because it can take more alkalinity if it doesn’t have any hardness in it?

SCAA recommends alkalinity of around 40 mg/l CaCO₃ equivalent. Adding 100 mg/l of NaHCO₃ will add 73 mg/l of HCO₃- as bicarbonate ion, which is an alkalinity of ~60 mg/l CaCO₃ equivalent. Higher than desired, but not nearly as much as it seems. If you use potassium bicarbonate rather than sodium bicarbonate, with the same 100 mg/l the alkalinity is going to be 50, so closer to (SCAA) target. It won’t make that much difference to the taste, and it’s easy to measure. If you aren’t adding hardness (Ca or Mg salts), then it won’t make any difference to scale.

MediumRoastSteam

Tanot @MediumRoastSteam thanks for the suggestion on .1g per 1L. I have the bicarbonate of soda already. That seems very high (everything is relative of course!) though compared to 0.04g as per the SCA, is that because it can take more alkalinity if it doesn’t have any hardness in it?

Can’t remember the number from the top of my head, but I think that gives you an alkalinity of 50mg/L as calcium carbonate. I never read any SCA recommendations, nor intend to. 😉 0.04g of sodium bicarbonate per litre seems way too little, providing you are quoting them correctly. Are you sure that’s not the alkalinity measurement, I.e.: 40mg/L?

Rob1

Tanot

Ok, where you’re going wrong is not using the correct data.

This is the recipe from BH

Recipe 3 – SCA

40.1g Buffer

68.6g Mg

891.3g DI water

All of those value relate to the concentrates they have made, not actual Mg salts or bicarbonates.

They go on to say:

The specifications state a range of total hardness as low as 17 mg/L as CaCO3 up to 85 mg/L as CaCO3. So you could keep your buffer here constant at 40.1g and go as low as 17g of Mg solution or as high as 85g (don’t forget to subtract the total concentrates used from your DI water!).

So what they are aiming for is an alkalinity of 40mg/l and a hardness of 17-85mg/l either from Ca or Mg (they use epsom salts for the concentrate). These are values as CaCO3, so you just need to add these to the spreadsheet in the designated cells.

If you use the remineralisation page you can put their recipes in there and it’ll tell you how much sodium, magnesium, bicarbonate, and sulfate you get when diluted in whatever amount of water you want to use. Iirc their recipes are designed so that 1g of concentrate in 999ml DI water gives 1mg/l of either alkalinity or Mg as CaCO3.

MWJB

MediumRoastSteam I never read any SCA recommendations, nor intend to.

They’re within the parameters that everyone else agrees on, but more realistic (essentially specifying the alkalinity at 40mg/L as CaCO3 and the range of hardness that you might find in groundwater, so dilution with DI/RO should always get you there, assuming no fails on other counts). The SCAA were in pretty early on the current fad of water shenanigans. The water recommendations were made in 2012, before they became the SCA. The SCA then used that data, plus the Hendon/Colonna-Dashwood book and Schulman recommendations to come up with a more comprehensive study which was free at time of release but now ‘pay for view’ for non SCA members (SCAA specs are still free to access).

I could certainly criticise the SCAA on some counts, but not in this case.

MediumRoastSteam

MWJB I could certainly criticise the SCAA on some counts, but not in this case.

I wasn’t criticising. I, personally, just never read their stuff.

MWJB

MediumRoastSteam Fair enough, but their influence permeates throughout the specialty coffee world, anyone who brews coffee is benefitting from their knowledge-base generally. (Though they didn’t necessarily start from scratch, they built on pre-existing data).

CoyoteOldMan

In case anyone does want the SCA complete document, 2018 version, it’s available here: https://docplayer.net/199033415-The-sca-water-quality-handbook.html

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