Hi. I recently got some new cups, which are black inside rather than my previous white ones & noticed some white flecks in the cup when I was drawing some water from the hot water wand on my Synchronika today. I don't know if it's carbonate sediment, something else or even if it's indicative of more serious scaling within the steam boiler. It might even have been happening for a while but only noticeable with the new cups I usually draw a cup of water from the steam boiler whenever I'm steaming & every couple of months I flush the steam boiler with a tank of zero water. I did about 4 flush cycles today, but still had these flecks afterwards. My domestic water is pretty dam soft so I've been remineralising zero water with a mix of Epsom Salts (0.74g) & Potassium Bicarbonate (0.3g) in 5l water, which from my calcs & drop test @ 25DegC gives a GH of around 60-70 & KH of 40. The last drop test I did on the water from the steam boiler a couple of weeks ago showed hardly any increase in GH or KH @ 25degC from the water I've been putting in. I removed the shower screen & also drew some water from the brew boiler, which set to 94 DegC & there weren't any flecks in that; so it does seem isolated to the stream boiler, which is set to 129 DegC The machine is 2-years old & hasn't had a descale since I bought it; as well, I didn't have any reason until now to think it might need one & also I was really sure of the best way to do it. I've no other concerns about the machine & it doesn't seem to be working any differently to when I first bought it. So I thought I'd put a shout out to the knowledgebase here to see if you think there is a cause for concern & if the are any pointers you can give on next steps I should take. Thanks in advance

Probably just residue in the service boiler. When you flush the steam boiler, what's your protocol?

Hi @"DavecUK" For a flush the steps I take are: > Bring the steam boiler up to temp & switch the machine off > Open the hot water tap & let the steam boiler empty into a dish until it stops hissing & close the hot water tap > Empty the water tank, wash & fill with zero water. > Switch on the machine, let the steam boiler fill & come up to temp then switch the machine off again. > Open the hot water tap again & let the boiler empty into a dish. > Switch the Steam Boiler off, switch the machine on & let the steam boiler fill with zero water again > Switch the machine off > Empty the water tank & refill with my brew water mix ready for when I next use the machine I guess this isn't a flush in the truest sense of the word more of a fill & pressurised drain but I thought it would be sufficient to clear out any sediment without taking a more invasive approach & disconnecting pipes I usually have the steam boiler on once a day for a couple of hours max if I'm going to be making a flat white, the rest of the time if I'm just doing espresso I have the steam boiler turned off The group was due a chemical backflush & cam lube, which I did this morning. I combined that with my annual check of all the group seals, valves & springs. Apart from a little tarnishing on the brass internals, which I was expecting; everything looked in good order & was clean as a whistle

@"PartySausage"#p22349 Sounds like you're doing everything correctly. There might be a little sediment at the very bottom of the boiler after all that. Really though it's nothing to worry about as your only using the water to heat cups and steam.

@"DavecUK" Thanks for easing my concerns & giving me some confidence I doing the right things to help keep the machine in good order. I'll keep an eye on it & see if the amount of flakes is increasing

White flecks in my swimming pool is excess calcium. Had it tested but of course I literally have no idea if it's the same with an espresso machine. I defer to @"DavecUK"#1

@"tompoland"#p22354 Probably,or excess dry residue as it's euphimistically called on bottled water. I have no idea what makes up dry residue!

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p22371 which would a a favourite for white deposits

White flecks from Hot Water Wand

PartySausage

tompoland Because my water make up doesn’t contain any calcium I wouldn’t have thought it was that, but it could equally be some sort of deposit from the Epsom Salts or Potassium Bicarb

MediumRoastSteam

PartySausage deposit from the Epsom Salts

Do you know the composition of your Epsom salt?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam which would a a favourite for white deposits

PartySausage

MediumRoastSteam The label just says Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate)

This is the stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00BQYTQ2M/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

DavecUK

PartySausage That would do it for sure…. I am sure there was something called Andrews Epsom Salts, it was fizzy when added to water, and it was my dad’s mission in life to take a glass of it every morning.

I was right, here’s the wonderful description.

Andrews Salts Original works as a laxative and antacid; it works quickly and effectively and can help you relieve uncomfortable symptoms such as; Indigestion excess acid and constipation to leave you feeling free and released.

PartySausage

DavecUK Oh right. This stuff certainly doesn’t fizz & I think it’s just Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate whereas I thought Andrews had amongst other stuff; citric acid addition to magnesium sulphate, which was where the fizz came from.
Would there be a more suitable substance for adding hardness that wouldn’t cause the flecks & is easy on the boiler?

CoyoteOldMan

PartySausage “Hardness” comes from calcium and magnesium. If the alkalinity comes from (bi)carbonate ions, both Ca and Mg will produce scale (eventually - a lot or a little, depending on temperatures, pressures and concentrations).

PartySausage

CoyoteOldMan Cheers for that. So from what you are saying; the chances are that what I’m seeing is Magnesium Carbonate as opposed to Calcium Carbonate.
The reading up I did whilst researching water formulations suggested that with Magnesium Carbonate being much more soluble than Calcium Carbonate it was unlikely to cause scaling unless high concentrations were used.
So I thought that with the mix I was using & my boiler refresh routine; that the mineral concentration within the boiler would never get high enough to precipitate scale. Maybe I’ll have to rethink things.
Do you have any suggestions as to what I should do next, either to ascertain the level of scaling or remove it?

LMSC

PartySausage what I should do next,

Perhaps this to peep inside?

CoyoteOldMan

PartySausage As far as I know, MgCO₃ is far less damaging: it doesn’t “stick” to metal as much as calcium; in fact some say it even forms a thin protective coating which prevents further scale accretion. Check with an endoscope as per LMSC ’s suggestion, and removal is the same as for any other scaling (i.e. using citric acid).

PartySausage

LMSC Thanks for the link. I’ve never used one of those & It may be a way to go. Direct USB seems to be better connection method than the Wi-Fi versions. I found this one Boroscope It’s slim although the resolution is 720p. Would that matter? There are higher resolution versions but the cameras seem to be bigger diameter, which I guess would limit err which hole I can shove it in!😵

CoyoteOldMan Thanks that’s good information. If I did go down the citric acid route following an inspection; do you have any tips/links/pitfalls for a SS Dual Boiler machine? I think I’d only need to do the steam boiler instead of both. Is it something that you would introduced via the water tank or direct into the boiler?

LMSC

PartySausage 720p

Should be more than enough, IMO.

CoyoteOldMan

PartySausage I think any tips/pitfalls are going to be much more dependent on the specific machine than on a generic “dual boiler”… and I really don’t know the Synchronika at all.

Re: water tank vs. boiler - it depends again on the machine and how easily accessible the boiler(s) are, how “tinker-happy” one is, and how much time one wants to spend flushing via a pump/valve system rather than directly into a boiler.

PartySausage

LMSC Cheers. I’ll order one & see what it looks like. Hopefully a descale won’t be required. I’m a bit nervous about doing it with reading various bits of conflicting information as to whether you should or shouldn’t do it on a Synchronika.

PartySausage

CoyoteOldMan The Sync is pretty easy to work on & the entire case can be removed in 5-min with just 6 Allen screws.
Tinker wise I would say I was pretty comfortable, though if the only real driver between tank or boiler was time I think I’d probably take the less invasive tank approach.
I’ll see what the inspection reveals & then go from there

Rob1

PartySausage 60-70 & KH of 40. The last drop test I did on the water from the steam boiler a couple of weeks ago showed hardly any increase in GH or KH @ 25degC from the water I’ve been putting in.

I removed the shower screen & also drew some water from the brew boiler, which set to 94 DegC & there weren’t any flecks in that; so it does seem isolated to the stream boiler, which is set to 129 DegC

At this alkalinity and temp the threshold for hardness before you see scale is about 45mg/l. It’s Magnesium carbonate scale and that it is more soluble than calcium isn’t of particular significance….it is still going to form scale, sure comparatively more will be dissolved when the water cools compared to calcium but that’s it.

Given you can’t have more than 45mg/l hardness in the water with 40mg/l alkalinity after heating it to 129c, I’m surprised your drop test shows 60gh and 40kh after letting it cool down….

PartySausage

Rob1 Hi Rob Thanks for that. I really appreciate your technical input.
Maybe I made a mistake with the drop test. I’m away for a couple of days so I’ll do another test at the weekend & report back.

PartySausage

It’s been a while since I’ve had chance to get hold of a camera & do a steam boiler inspection but I’ve finally managed to have a peek in there
There is some scale on the element but don’t? think it would be considered as badly scaled. The pictures aren’t great but thought I’d post them & canvas opinion on the condition & any suggestions as to what to do next to see if you think I should perform a descale?
I’m still getting the white flecks from the hot water wand, which are usually worse for the first few heating cycles following emptying & refilling the boiler, which I’m guessing is due the the boiler refill disturbing some particles that are in there

DavecUK

Looks like it’s just limescale…which machine is it?

PartySausage

DavecUK It’s an ECM Synchronika Dave