Does the total weight include the bag weight as well?

LMSC

@MediumRoastSteam @DavecUK @CoyoteOldMan

I emailed their delivery manager, cited the legal requirement to mention the weight on the box and also the photos showing the actual weight of the beans. They apologised, did not provide any explanations and advised that they will ensure their machineries are working properly going forward.

As a gesture of good will and as a thank you for bringing this to their attention, the manger offered a full refund. I refused a full refund as I did not see it morally and ethically correct to accept it. They are a good roaster and it may hurt them more under current trying circumstances. Instead, I had advised them, if they like, they may send a token refund; they did issue me a token refund as advised.

I have also requested an email confirming their problems have been fixed. I will re-order again, provided they advise me they have fixed the issues.

Penance

This thread got me thinking, I ordered a few sample collections from redber coffee. Each bag is said to be 125g.
8 bags, lowest weight is 143g, highest is 396g. I kinda hope they dont fix their weighing machine!

CoyoteOldMan

Penance highest is 396g

😱

DavecUK

Penance Let’s hope they’re not reading this!

Penance

DavecUK indeed!

CrownandCanvas

It blows my mind reading some of this, I didnt even know the “250g e” was a thing… seems silly especially when coffee drinkers typically weigh their doses, its not difficult maths to work out how many brews you should get out of a standard 250g and notice when you’re suddenly short…unless done completely intentional of course.

I remember when we were first buying some of our packaging equipment and the price difference between a standard set of commercial scales, and a set of commercial scales tested and calibrated for weights and measure regulations was a decent price jump…but definitely worth it compared to selling your customers short and getting an angry email or slapped by authorities/trading standards etc.

I know when we’ve looked at automated weigh and fill machines too they’re always calibrated to give x% over the set dose, as giving your customer 5grams more is far better than 5grams short.

I’ve been missing a trick here! 😉

MediumRoastSteam

Coming back to this, I ordered 2× 1kg bags from Dark Arts.

There’s nowhere in the bag (not printed, not a sticker) stating the net weight (or the gross weight) of the product.

The only place that’s available is in the order details slip.

I did check though, and the net contents were 1,004g and 1,009g.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam My personal view (I don’t know if it’s correct) is that to protect the consumer, the weight should always be legally the net weight, unless otherwise stated. Unfortunately, consumer protection/protection of ordinary people, seems low down on the list when it comes to drafting laws.

the law on coffee is particularly opaque, as it’s not classed as a food and different rules exist for instant coffee, or soluble coffee products. There are lots of regulations around net weight (pages and pages). However there is no set of clear guidance on key weight parameters and an impossibility to get any clarity on net or gross weigh labelling in general and for coffee, apart from what the terms mean.

It seems that a product (like coffee) can be marked with a weight and it not defined whether net or gross, in addition there is nothing in law to say “unless otherwise stated” net weight labelling is assumed. A simple statement like this would address any concerns the consumer might have and stop opaque labelling practices.

The term “unless otherwise stated” is common parlance used by business when dealing with consumers to protect them. In laws to protect consumers…it seems rarely used.

IMO any good roaster will always use net weight…stated or not.

MediumRoastSteam

So… in my post above, I wrote:

MediumRoastSteam There’s nowhere in the bag (not printed, not a sticker) stating the net weight (or the gross weight) of the product.

And then the discussion ignores the obvious, and goes and talks about net weight, gross weight, over and under. But the point I’m trying to make… (again)

MediumRoastSteam There’s nowhere in the bag (not printed, not a sticker) stating the net weight (or the gross weight) of the product.

https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/labelling-packaged-goods

Which is therefore non compliant?

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - all good. But note that Dark Arts doesn’t put the weight (net or gross) on the bags, at all.

LMSC

After the Dec 22 conversation with them, I am pleased the net weight is now good as ordered. I always wondered why some do not print the weight on the bag.

Without naming another roaster, 3 of the 4 bags were out by 7-10g on a net weight basis. The bag mentioned just 250g. This happened 3 months ago. That roaster did not even say sorry; they said their weights are always correct by net. I showed them the proof. They didn’t reply.

It doesn’t bother me much as I only randomly weigh. So, it can happen some time.

Nightrider_1uk

CoffeePhilE Is 10g under accurate enough? On a 250g bag, no. But on the load on a 40-tonne truck? Or the cargo capacity of a 747, or a container ship? it’s all relative. In other words, materiality.

Thats why; as you know; all equipment have tolerances, usually based on percentages: Back in the day, when I was in Instrumentation, Standard Test Gauges (STG’s, for pressure) have an accuracy of +/- 0.25%, These would be used to check the field instrumentation, (Field instrumentation having an accuracy of +/- 1%, and be spot checked on a Dead Weight Tester (DWT) before and after use. These STD’s would be fully calibrated on the DWT every 3 months. The DWT’s would be sent away to a lab to be calibrated every year.

The coffee roasters scales would also have an accuracy and would have to conform to weights and measures requirements. Over 1kg of coffee that could amount to 10g or more depending on the requirements of the law for selling off goods by weight.

CoffeePhilE

Nightrider_1uk Thats why; as you know; all equipment have tolerances, usually based on percentages: Back in the day, when I was in Instrumentation, Standard Test Gauges (STG’s, for pressure) have an accuracy of +/- 0.25%, …..

The coffee roasters scales would also have an accuracy and would have to conform to weights and measures requirements. Over 1kg of coffee that could amount to 10g or more depending on the requirements of the law for selling off goods by weight.

Yes. It’s similar in weights and measures, but not quite the same. If I understand you correctly, the tolerance is linear across the range with pressure. It’s a similar principle in weights and measures but not quite linear. There’s a “Maximum Permissible Error” (MPE) usually measured in “e” which is a specific amount, for a given range of weight, but any given scale might have several of the bands within it’s range of measuring. i.e. maybe 0.5e for the first part of the range, 1.0e for the nex bit, and 1.5e for the last segment. The tolerances, therefore, aren’t a straight linear scale, but rather a sort of stepped linear, with plateaus.

In short, the principle, that the MPE is proportional to the magnitude of what’s being measured is the same, but the mechanics of the calculation are a bit different. And that’s why that same principle, MPE and the specific value of “e” at a given weight, allow the same legislation to apply to scales measuring pharmaceuticals in a lab, loose food products in a retailer. or a lorry in a weigh station.

In my case (at retailer/supermarket type weights) my calibration weights had to be regularly calibrated against (and by) local Trading Standards reference weights, which if I remember correctly, were calibrated against a UK “national” reference kilogram, which was calibrated against the overall world reference Kg, in Paris.

I should add I’ve been out of that game for years, and the above certainly relates to pre-Brexit. As the UK legislation was our implementation of prevailing EU law at that time, it MIGHT have changed, post-Brexit. I doubt it has, in any relevant way, and can’t see why it would, but I’m not current, so it’s certainly possible.

EDIT - It wasn’t just the weights that were tested for compliance, either. So were we. Company procedures had to be ISO9000, and individual testers (like me) were audited by visting Trading Standards guys to be sure we knew the laws, and followed them in implemention both calibration, and testing. Fun days. :D

Gagaryn

I’m not sure it’s as complicated as some are making out. My understanding is that coffee is included in the packaged goods regulations. Why wouldn’t it be? Granted, there are additional conditions on the packaging of soluble coffee but that isn’t what is being discussed here - this is about packaged beans.

So unless I am massively over simplifying it seems straightforward.

The packaged weight refers to the goods that are packed - not the packaging.
The package must, on average, contain at least the declared weight of product. The average is necessary as no system is perfect - but…
Only a small proportion can contain less than a defined “tolerable negative error (TNE)”. The average of all bags sold must be at least the declared weight.
And none can have less than double the tolerable negative error.
Being heavier than declared is fine.

So for coffee, if the odd 1KG bag weighs 985g that is acceptable as long as the average of all bags sold is at least 1KG. But a single bag must never be under 970g.

This seems pretty reasonable in terms of regulation for both producers and consumers as far as I can see.

Others may know why it is more complicated than that - I spent literally 2 minutes looking at these two pages.

https://www.stevenstraceability.com/average-weight-explained/

https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/packaged-goods

Gagaryn

MediumRoastSteam Yes, appears it is.

LMSC

I had a few email exchanges with them and specifically drawn attention to the labelling. I am sure they know this and a work around the compliance.

Nightrider_1uk

CoffeePhilE In my case (at retailer/supermarket type weights) my calibration weights had to be regularly calibrated against (and by) local Trading Standards reference weights, which if I remember correctly, were calibrated against a UK “national” reference kilogram, which was calibrated against the overall world reference Kg, in Paris.

Best let’s not get started on Cumulative Effects of Calibration Errors then.

I to have been out of the game for a long time now, it’s all gone digital. Whilst not being audited by trading standards, we too had to be of a certain standard (4 year apprenticeship) to be considered trained, and we would get audited by our own internal auditing department to ensure that we adhered to company standards.

« Previous Page