Momentum dual burr hand grinder

tompoland

Featuring on www.indiegogo.com the dual burr “momentem” hand grinder (note the spelling).

Love the concept.

Can’t see any proof of concept though.

Can’t find the burrs they are using (make and model), haven’t found any evidence of a working prototype which has me concerned that they haven’t even built one yet. There is a massive gulf between beautiful graphic representations and the plans for a prototype, let alone actually building a working grinder. And that is not even mentioning the challenges with manufacturing at scale.

Smells too much of slick marketing and not enough substance. “The world’s first dual burr grinder”. Yeah nah.

But has anyone seen details of the burrs published or a video of a working prototype?

InfamousTuba

I have been looking and can’t see anything, not even prototypes. It seems to have a lot of the quality of life features for a hand grinder and the adjustable pre breaker is an interesting concept. But without any test data or prototypes, I think for the price of $400 not including taxes and shipping it is something hard to justify backing

MWJB

There’s already the Wonplug dual burr hand grinder. Not sure I see the point, people have used dual burrs before (usually a coarse, pre-breaker, then a normal/finishing burr, or regrinding from coarse to fine), but other than less power required to grind, it’s unclear if there is any other difference,

tompoland

MWJB there’s a difference in the cup. The hybrid burrs give some of the thick choc that you might typically expect from say niche zero conical burrs but also some of the origin flavour that you would expect from flat burrs.

So my beef is not with the validity of the concept but rather with the lack of any prototype or testing of any description.

I guess what I’m saying is the concept is sound and worthwhile but that’s all it is at the moment; some graphics and a video.

MWJB

tompoland Interesting, why do you differentiate between “choc” (which I very rarely find in coffee) and “origin flavour”?

I’d expect maybe milk choc from a Brazil, or dark choc from a Bolivian, but surely, they’re part of the origin flavour?

Crowd funding projects are largely strewn with artist’s renderings & clunky, non-functioning mock ups, it just comes with the territory.

tompoland

MWJB not sure how to describe it other than to say one note (flavor notes) tastes more like chocolate and the other note tastes more like nuts. Sorry to be so vague.

Maybe this will help: a grinder like Mazzer Kony conical burrs (e.g. Niche Zero) and dark roasted beans and a standard 1:2 ratio espresso shot will have stronger chocolate notes. A grinder with Mazzer Robur burrs (Key, Livi, Helor) or larger flat burrs (EG-1) with medium roasted beans gives more pronounced nut flavors or what I would call more “origin” flavors.

It’s a matter of opinion of course, but I don’t think that chocolate is a part of the origin flavors in that the bean has to be manipulated by heavier roasting and the right burr set in order for chocolate notes to be dominant. If you grind a green bean with a motar and pestle and then taste, I doubt that you will taste much chocolate.

Dark roasting beans and grinding with burrs like the Kony conicals, yields more fines and a more viscous espresso and more chocolate notes. Another way of putting this is that more of the roast flavours are added to the origin flavors. So much so, that with a heavy enough roast, the origin flavors are almost non existent. Add milk, and they are even more difficult to detect.

It’s a bit like steak, the more you cook it the less of the original flavors you’ll detect and the more of the cooking flavors, even burnt, that will come through. Add enough tomato sauce and you won’t taste any of the original flavors that you would if the steak was rare and sans sauce. Espresso’s equivalent to tomato sauce is milk. Roast the bean enough and add enough milk and you are not going to taste much of the original bean’s flavor.

No idea if that helps at all but not sure how else to articulate the difference. Hopefully someone with a better command of English and more attuned taste buds can articulate the difference better.

tompoland

MWJB Crowd funding projects are largely strewn with artist’s renderings & clunky, non-functioning mock ups, it just comes with the territory.

That’s sometimes the case. Many launch with a working prototype e.g. X-Bar, Odyssey Argos, Osma, Niche Zero, Zerno and Knob grinders.

MWJB

tompoland I guess I can’t really relate to notes like “nut” & “choc” because these food stuffs are so diverse in flavour (e.g. Galaxy milk choc & Lindt 90% have nothing in common, similarly macadamia & pistachio).

Darker roasts, to me, just taste like more roast, maybe my comparison would be along the lines of degree of toasting with bread, or roast with beer malts? Sure, the darker you go, the less distinct flavours are present (and whilst, I don’t know why anyone would go so dark as to mask them significantly), roast level is a subjective preference and roasting is always necessary.

I do get chocolate occasionally, with light roasts (espresso & brewed). I don’t think you can extract a green bean to a recognisable coffee flavour level, so whilst we talk about origin flavour and roast, I think we’re generally talking about once the bean is around 1st crack at the very least. Underdeveloped coffees lack origin flavour, just like over roasted coffee.

DavecUK

tompoland I think the key things for success are:

There is a prototype
Assessing how far along the prototype is…to give you an idea of delivery timescales
The prototype and pre production items are being thoroughly tested and a review of that is available

tompoland

DavecUK agree and following on from that, it puzzles me as to why more creators done get reviews published.

And having new models sent to experts for pre production testing g like many send to you Dave would seem like a sound idea. But to not even have a working prototype? Count me out.

tompoland

MWJB I’m enjoying your input, thank you.

Maybe it comes down to our respective definitions of “origin flavor” and if that’s the case, more power to you for having a different definition. Celebrate diversity and all that good stuff.

For me, if “origin” has anything to do with “original” then the green bean is as “origin” as its ever going to get.

Roasting develops the flavors which means the bean is on a journey from the original flavor to the flavor we are aiming for.

Which by my definition, is away from the origin/original flavor. Hence the term “development time” used in the roasting process.

DavecUK

tompoland And having new models sent to experts for pre production testing g like many send to you Dave would seem like a sound idea. But to not even have a working prototype? Count me out.

Creators are concerned that a proper review would show up flaws, or negative points about the product and affect their ability to complete the campaign. They will want NDAs to control what can be said about the product. I’ve never signed and NDA in my life, nor would I, even though I have been asked.

The Crem 1 2B LFPP was a fine example. They wanted an NDA, I said no, so only got the product when it was “completed” 1 year later and due to go on sale. Shocker….I found a lot I wasn’t happy with and wanted fixed before I could even think to recommend that BB could sell them and other stuff that they didn’t want to do to make it better because it was so far into production. This was a great shame, had I been involved a year earlier, things would have been much cheaper and very different.

So you have the wish to gag issue
the concern that they need to use influencers if they can (influencers generally don’t improve products)
If someone like me did review a prototype, they might be minded to listen to any feedback, because they wouldn’t send it to me if they weren’t going to listen, unless they made the mistake of thinking I am an influencer. So generally, I don’t get asked by Crowdfunders. The one that did (Niche), did not regret asking me at all.

What I do, and I’m good at it…is look at products and find:

big gotchas, that need to be fixed
Small gotchas that can be quickly and easily remedied before it goes into production
Improvements that can be quick and cheap wins
Spot things they have not thought of.

I saw a machine a while ago that’s in production and spotted a very easy change that can be implemented, very cheaply, with barely no modification. The improvement to the machine would be significant!

Another conversation about a simple shot timer in concept stage (open circuit board test of concept), allowed me to suggest something that hadn’t been thought of at all and would only require a little extra programming before board flash…but would make a significant difference to the concept, especially in a commercial setting.

I find this sort of challenge a mental puzzle, and I enjoy solving puzzles, especially when manufacturers can talk to me at specification and CAD stage.

P.S. It’s why I do very much less reviewing now, preferring to do improving and then a review of something I’ve improved. I’m happy for the “influencers” and entertainers to do the “review”.

tompoland

Fascinating glimpse behind the development curtain.

The Gevi 4 in 1 is an interesting example of a company developing their working prototype well before launching. They sent machines out seemingly without NDAs, listened to feedback and incorporated most of that feedback. Then launched. The final product is pretty darned impressive for what it is.

Check this out:

Gevi may have joined Niche in setting the standard for developing prototypes prior to launch.

Similarly, the guy behind the Boston E Tamper. Lots of prototypes out without NDAs, feedback, improvements, selling units made at home. All before a crowd funding campaign.

These examples are in stark contrast to campaigns like the Momentem hybrid hand grinder (great concept) where there is not even a working prototype to be found. In my opinion their campaign lacks credibility unfortunately, but I would love for those who are backing them to end up with a game changing grinder in their hands.