ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva

Cuprajake

Off top of my head im not sure without going back through some old notes,

Its sometimes hard because americans talk in gallons which are different uk to us

From memory they were using 38ml to a us gallon

DenisS

Water matters no matter what you use it for when preparing coffee, it doesn’t matter if it’s a espresso machine or a brew. I compared several times with many friends so I’m not byased, 0 ppm water to 50 ppm water to 100ppm water to tap water to custom made water.

Custom made water for coffee always wins. Take for example TWW (third wave water) has ~188ppm (23ppm Calcium, 17 ppm Na, 140 ppm Mg) and it’s used by the top elites in the world, for competing, for coffee shops for brewing.

But be free to do anything you want, again you can use a 50ppm water total and the machine will run for 10 years with no scale, but that doesnt mean the taste is the best with that setup, and espresso is all about taste not protecting a stupid machine.

Rob1

Hardness in brewing water makes absolutely no difference to extraction but does affect the taste of the water substantially….and given the drink is mostly water it has an impact on the finished beverage. From memory this misunderstanding that you need hardness for a good extraction came from the Water for Coffee book by Chris Hendon & Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood, they have since backtracked. MWJB mentioned this and linked to their discussion over on the old forum.

I’ve tried a few different formulations over the years. I hated epsom salts and calcium chloride and now remineralise with magnesium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. I avoid scale in the service boiler by manually draining it and filling it with distilled water every 5 weeks or so depending on use. If I had a copper/brass boiler rather than 316l steel I’d probably just do a very light descale at a similar frequency to prevent any large flakes blocking things up. The Magnesium adds a bit of extra sweetness and body compared to the same alkalinity with just sodium or potassium bicarb, but there is no difference at all between calcium and magnesium when it comes to scaling (by weight as CaCO3). I found the water with sodium bicarb and magnesium sulfate deeply unpleasant compared to both, probably because of high sodium and high sulfate.

An interesting test might be to compare two brews made with water of the same alkalinity but with hardness added to the finished brew for one and hardness in from the start with the other and see if there’s any difference with a refractometer and taste.

Cuprajake

I dunno, for me descaling a machine is a big problem something im not im very comfortable doing, so for me taking a marginal hit on the taste of the coffee vs the ball ache that is ripping a machine to bits to descale, is something im prepared to do.

If i were a super human taster and was obssessive over extracting every minute detail from a bean then fair do. But for me its an non issue.

Cuprajake

But lets not forget most of this is only an issue if your using a service boiler,

DenisS

My steam boiler was on in total 30 minutes in 6 months. The machine is ready for pick up. Awaiting for the guy to come take it. Niche went away today too.

LMSC

Interesting read and learning experience guys. Thanks!

While we all strive to make an excellent coffee and go a distance to continuously improve the outcome, protecting the machine so that it lasts as long as possible is equally critical. May be, except a few, most of us can’t afford to spend thousands on a new machine every 2 years because we didn’t care enough.

I also think we do not have to compromise between making a great cup and protecting the machine.

DenisS

You guys are cracking me, what is so hard to descale a boiler? I wish to know.

Or what is so deadly for a machine to descale it?

Cuprajake

DenisS obs you’re the best,

Some dont have the know how or want to rip a machine to bits.

Rob1

It isn’t difficult to descale a service boiler. Brew boilers without drain valves are a different story. It’s not so much difficult as it is time-consuming and wasteful. Descaling can cause unnecessary wear with the use of highly acidic solutions. Scale can be more problematic when it builds up as descaling will dislodge large flakes that can easily block up solenoids and other parts e.g. hot water taps, steam wands, group gicleur. Scale itself can increase corrosion if it forms with chloride and sulfate (depending on boiler material) and can be very difficult or impossible to remove aside from mechanical means with high silica content. You might say boilers, heating elements and gaskets are all replaceable parts, and you might well ask what’s so difficult about removing and cleaning solenoid valves or vacuum breakers, removing and replacing gaskets etc but most people want to avoid it if possible.

DenisS

I’m not, I just saw the discussion a machine is dead if you need to descale, lol.

LMSC

With all respect, perhaps, we are taking it all in a literal sense.

Every one of us has a common goal - make a damn good cup of coffee at home. The commonality stops here. The rest - finance, coffee skills, willingness / confidence and machine upkeep - are up in the air.

Some already has the know how, some just can’t, not keen and the rest can but don’t know how to. For an example, I just don’t know how to descale the boiler manually as I am not sure what I should touch and shouldn’t! The worry therefore, is I may end up messing up something! A big help - step by step - is required.

It’s fine to have divergent views. That’s what makes the forum and knowledge sharing interesting. Folks like you DenisS are knowledgeable to contribute significantly! 😊

DavecUK

LMSC It’s fine to have divergent views. That’s what makes the forum and knowledge sharing interesting. Folks like you DenisS are knowledgeable to contribute significantly! 😊

I think that’s what makes discussion interesting. Not only the coffee discussion, but the non coffee topics as well. We are all different, with different machines tastes and views. I think we should embrace that and enjoy friendly banter. I went to visit my mum today in the care home, she suffers with mixed dementia and the mum I knew is slipping away. I believe we should value these times when we can discuss, follow hobbies, share interests and yes, have a bit of pleasant banter. We never know when our world might start to become smaller, like my mums, or our ability to enjoy these things slips away…stolen by the thief of old age.

LMSC

DavecUK Absolutely!

Our life is fluid and we can disappear just like a bubble! We don’t know who’s next.

So, let’s enjoy while it lasts, have empathy, a friendly banter and help each other make some good coffee!

Have a good week end every one!

Cuprajake

While i could happily take a machine apart, i dont fancy it

Heres why 🤣

SimonBarker

Cuprajake You know you don’t have to do it at the same speed as him I trust? 😃

danielpugh

Quick update - have sourced an RO machine, and in process getting a drain installed. So this morning I thought I’d take a look at the leak. surprisingly It’s gone. Turns out if you have a leak on a machine at 125deg then the water coming out bubbles and looks like in that photo (I.e. cotton wool). However the joints need fixing as the pipe going into the boiler rotates with finger pressure. Unlike the check valve that needs to be undone first which is both super tight and difficult to get to.

[Edit] easier to take the whole boiler out - took about 15 mins after hrs if trying to get a decent angle

DavecUK

danielpugh leak. surprisingly It’s gone. Turns out if you have a leak on a machine at 125deg then the water coming out bubbles and looks like in that photo (I.e. cotton wool). However the joints need fixing as the pipe going into the boiler rotates with finger pressure. Unlike the check valve that needs to be undone first which is both super tight and difficult to get to.

[Edit] easier to take the whole boiler out - took about 15 mins after hrs if trying to get a decent angle

I definitely thought it would be easier to remove the boiler………People always worry, but it’s very few connectors to remove, heating element wires some easy to remove PTFE connections and compressions connectors… The fitting above those elbows can be a pig to get to. For the factory it’s fine because of course they are building them and sealing as they go. I have even seen on some machines with a rotary pump the need to remove the boilers to replace an antibackflow valve….because it was assembled with a pipe structure in place and then the boiler installed with it all connected. of course, nothing could be undone without boiler removal.

Glad it’s sorted, presumably you used PTFE to reseal?

SimonBarker

danielpugh Which RO machine did you go for?

I’m curious because I’m moving my machine which means it’ll no longer be plumbed in, I think I’ve narrowed the choices down to either a tankless RO setup or mixing bottled water.

danielpugh

So looking inside the boiler with a camera flash lighting up through hole in the bottom - boiler internals are pristine, so no limescale to worry about at this point (good news).

Ascertained the main cause I think. The threading of the pipe out of the bottom of the boiler is only tight when about 30 degrees further turned than the two on the top I.e. turned to the side of the machine rather than the front as the pipes need. So for the pipes to fit the pipe has to be loosened - hence the leak.

Question at this point is - do I use PTFE tape to fill the gap or PTFE liquid, or both or a.n.other?

DavecUK

danielpugh Question at this point is - do I use PTFE tape to fill the gap or PTFE liquid, or both or a.n.other?

Personally, I would go for tape..

Lube thread with Molykote, wrap PTFE (not sure how many turns 6 or 7??). Ensure PTFE is wrapped the right way around the thread, smear Molykote thinly over PTFE. The elbow should be tight all the way in…so you can just about turn it, without the remotest risk of bending or snapping it.

before doing all this, eyeball how far fully in is, as only thread to thread engagement seals, I think the end plates of the boilers are 8mm thick. Also you want to make sure you turn it to the right position and never have to go backwards if possible.

rusty-pie

I was wondering if someone could post a photo am memory metal and traditional vacuum breaker

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