I am more a maths and physics guy and hate chemistry. I scanned through several thread of discussion on water from time to time but the contents were too heavy for me. I am currently using Volvic water on my Robot. Fri drinking water, I have hard water tap and Also have the Harvey’s water softener system (using salt). I am in the market for an espresso machine with boiler. As I learnt that volvic water also prone to scaling issue. So, I think it is better to make my own water(?) any advice in this and also what water system should I use given I already have the Harvey’s? Re the zero water, I read that I need to fill it with water all the time and put into fridge. That sounds a bit of inconvenience but I will try to work It out if it is the recommendation. Thanks!

RO, RODI, Distilled and Zero water, in no particular order. All remineralised before feeding into the machine.

I'd be interested in how soft a water softener makes water? I've been looking at softeners (not for coffee) but wondered if it would be an additional benefit

@"Dusk"#p24826 Water softeners work really well with RO.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p24836 The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee. Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water > @"DavecUK"#p24839 water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter Seems it will require less frequent filter replacement. Will also look into RO. Thanks both.

Sorry. Need some spoon feeding on the topic of water

CoyoteOldMan

Dusk Bear in mind that many softeners don’t decrease the mineral content of water - they exchange calcium and magnesium ions (that can form scale) with sodium ions (that don’t). The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee.

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee.

Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water

DavecUK water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter

Seems it will require less frequent filter replacement. Will also look into RO.

Thanks both.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK Water softeners work really well with RO.

How? Isn’t RO water deprived of minerals, so there’s nothing to soften anyway? I’m now curious.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam water softeners work very effectively with ro systems, because the softened water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK because the softened water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter

I understand. But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener? Is there any point? Isn’t the water already as “soft” as it can be?

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water

With the Zero, it won’t make much of a difference if you send (sodium) softened or unsoftened water through it - the ion-stripping is chemical, not physical as with RO.

If you can pre-treat the water to remove some of the dissolved salts (and/or suspended solids), the Zero filter will last longer - but then you’ll have the cost of two filters (the pre-treatment and the Zero), so I don’t think it’s going to make a difference there either.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam Isn’t the water already as “soft” as it can be?

Sodium ion still needs to be removed!

FWIW, the TDS readings at our place today is:

348 tap
322 (salt block) softened water
38 Remineralised Osmio Zero
about 15-17 without the remineralisation cartridge

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam I think you are reading the ‘order of filtering’ the opposite way. Sending (sodium) softened water through an RO membrane is likely to make the RO filter last longer; sending RO water through a softener will - at best - result in nothing happening. At worst, you’ll end up with badly remineralised water (with an excess of sodium - I don’t know whether the ion-exchange resins are purely ‘exchanging’ on a solid surface or whether there are soluble compounds in the resin column).

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Never mind - same thing already addressed. Sorry, I should have read the whole thread rather than posting/responding
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DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener?

Putting softened water through an RO system, not the other way round. The RO strips out all the sodium carbonate.

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC Sodium ion still needs to be removed!

Are you saying RO does not remove sodium ions from the water?

The bit I don’t understand here is that Dave said “Water softeners work really well with RO”.

My understanding of the quoted sentence is that a water softener works really well when fed Reverse Osmosis water. - which I don’t believe there’s any point in doing so, as the water is already almost as pure as it can be.

And as I type this, because for the life of me I don’t understand, (bear with me, I’m having a moment! 🤣🤣🤣🤣) it seems that I might be reading this the other way around, and what you and Dave are saying is that a Reverse Osmosis system, like the Osmio Zero, works really well when it is fed water which has been softened, e.g.: by means of ion exchange as explained earlier. Therefore, in my brain, the sentence should’ve been written as “RO systems work really well with softened water”.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam Are you saying RO does not remove sodium ions from the water?

No. I didn’t say that.

The softened water is going to exchange the positively charged ions such as calcium, potassium and magnesium. The softened water will contain lots of sodium ion. These in addition to other minerals will be removed by the RO.

If you compare the TDS readings before RO (softened water) and after RO, we can see the difference. I remember a conversation with Mark @OsmioWater during the early days of RO. He said the softened water would compliment the RO well as it will prolong the life of the filters. Feeding the hard water like ours may require relatively frequent filter change.

I do not know how well the RO removes the sodium ions, which require special membranes. Are the RO membranes designed to efficiency filter the sodium ion? The folks at @OsmioWater can answer. Otherwise, we need a tester, which I think isn’t cheaper to buy.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam water softener works really well when fed Reverse Osmosis water

The flow is

Hard water —> Salt block softener —> softened water —> RO —> RO water

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC No. I didn’t say that.

I know. My confusion was that I was trying to hack my brains to find why would one bother putting RO water through a water softener. But I understand it’s a benefit of putting softened water through an RO system. The initial comment which started this was written the other way round, to me at least. Anyway, water under the bridge (RO or Softened?) 🤣. It’s all clear now. :-)

OsmioWater

Hello all, it’s always a good idea to soften the water at the point of entry to protect everything thereafter from the build up of scale. So for the Osmio Zero it’s solenoid valve will scale up just the same as the one on a dmonestic boiler. However the problem is exacerbated with the Osmio Zero because of its way of recirculating the concentrate.

So what happens in practice is everyone who is in a soft water area or who is in a hard area but has a working salt softener, we have never any problems with the machine after sales.

The only problems we have in where the customer never descales the machine. To descale it you need the empty filters in the sanitisation kit, and rather than use Milton tablets you would use citric acid.

The Osmio Zero and all the other RO systems remove sodium carbonate to less than delectable levels on mg/l, so pretty much full proof for removing the approximate 150mg/l added on average by a softener. The UK regs for sodium are 200 mg/l.

We use a ro system and an inline system for a commercial coffee machine at Pureplanet Cafe, the inline system has a 0.2 micron ceramic filter and a DEalk resin filter. All in all it will keep the machine boilers etc from build up of scale which is really the first thing that will make it go wrong.

I’m in the market for a used single group lever machine and a couple of commercial grinders if anyone knows of any for sale?

Also in other news we sourced biodynamic green beans from Henrique Sloper at Camocim in Brazil and are roasting and packaging and now supplying 3 other cafes and shops. Check out Pureplanet Natural Coffee if you haven’t tried it yet, I’m sure you will like it.

BBC food producer of the year finalist, Tablehurst Farm just recently switched their cafe to Pureplanet Biodynamic Coffee, they said it was so much better than the organic coffee they used and it is. Organic can mean so many things. It can be GMO for example. But biodynamic produce is as pure as anything you would pick wild and it really shows in the feel of the coffee.

Best wishes

Mark

LMSC

OsmioWater I’m in the market for a used single group lever machine and a couple of commercial grinders if anyone knows of any for sale?

Lever

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvuis-evo-leva-for-sale

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/833-londinium-r-ps1950-with-londinium-preinfusion-module/7

I am not sure if the Londinium is sold or still available.

Grinder

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/177-mazzer-royal-83mm-tin-burrs-ps150

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/757-mazzer-royal-with-titanium-burrs/2

Knluk

Just done some search on the RO system. Don’t think I know how to branch out from the outlet of the softener to make the plumping setup for that.

Though, I found the following. Has anyone considered buying RO water? It seems the cost is pretty acceptable. Any thoughts please?

https://pureklenz.co.uk/product/demineralised-water-25-litre/

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk a couple of things to consider:

They offer 3 grades of purity - prices ranging from ~50p/litre to ~75p/litre in 25 litre tanks. The only grade where they state “food production” is the most expensive one. It is possible that the de-ionised grade is fine, but I’d be wary of potential biological contamination (which seems to be the difference in treatment)
The cost of a Zerowater filter is £15 if you buy 2 (and even less if you buy more filters). With very hard water, you get 40 litres out of it, for a price/litre of about half as much (37.5 p/litre).
You need to store the 25 litre container somewhere, and keep it relatively sterile once it has been opened. Not impossible, but added fuss.

DavecUK

Knluk Bacterial contamination, especially once you open it, the water contains no chlorine. Even if you put it in the fridge it won’t last more than 3 days, and then you should drink it. But with a container that large you won’t be able to refrigerate it.

I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero, with filters costing me £40 per year.

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan oh. I thought I need to use RO, for which I have lack of plumping knowledge to connect the devices. Obviously, I was wrong. Will go for the ZeroWater route then. May I also get some advice on minimal to add please? Thanks again!

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan btw, what is your workflow for using zerowater? Do you filter a large amount of water say once a week and fill up the whole boiler? Do I need to keep water in the device during the week?

For my Robot, maybe I need a separate container to store the filtered water. Need to store in fridge?

Knluk

DavecUK Bacterial contamination, .. it won’t last more than 3 days.

I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero.

So do you finish the 12-16 L in 3 days? Sorry for silly question. I think better to be safe than sorry for healthy related question.

Cuprajake

10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

Is these two sentences the same meaning?

DavecUK

, I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

I planned to start with a simple route of only dosing potassium carbonate but I am confused here. What is service boiler concentration? Refresh means draining all the water out then replace with new water?

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk some advice on minimal to add please?

I guess you mean ‘minerals to add’? What I use is

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l
KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

scale as you like (I use a concentrate).

Knluk what is your workflow for using zerowater?

Filter what I need when I need it - the Evo’s tank holds a bit less than 2.5 litres, and I use about half that every day (a lever is definitely “water wasteful”). I will check the machine in the morning, and make 1 or 1.5 litres of remineralised water to top up. It takes about 10-15 minutes to filter this much water.

Knluk Do I need to keep water in the device during the week?

Well, @dutchy101 got this advice from Zerowater, but I can’t find it on the website - I’m doing it, as it costs nothing: just fill the pitcher up after I fill the machine. What they do say is that keeping the pitcher in the fridge is not necessary, as long as it’s kept outside of sunlight.