I am more a maths and physics guy and hate chemistry. I scanned through several thread of discussion on water from time to time but the contents were too heavy for me. I am currently using Volvic water on my Robot. Fri drinking water, I have hard water tap and Also have the Harvey’s water softener system (using salt). I am in the market for an espresso machine with boiler. As I learnt that volvic water also prone to scaling issue. So, I think it is better to make my own water(?) any advice in this and also what water system should I use given I already have the Harvey’s? Re the zero water, I read that I need to fill it with water all the time and put into fridge. That sounds a bit of inconvenience but I will try to work It out if it is the recommendation. Thanks!

RO, RODI, Distilled and Zero water, in no particular order. All remineralised before feeding into the machine.

I'd be interested in how soft a water softener makes water? I've been looking at softeners (not for coffee) but wondered if it would be an additional benefit

@"Dusk"#p24826 Water softeners work really well with RO.

@"Dusk"#p24826 Bear in mind that many softeners don't decrease the mineral content of water - they exchange calcium and magnesium ions (that can form scale) with sodium ions (that don't). The taste of "softened" water isn't necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee.

> @"DavecUK"#p24833 Water softeners work really well with RO. How? Isn’t RO water deprived of minerals, so there’s nothing to soften anyway? I’m now curious.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p24838 water softeners work very effectively with ro systems, because the softened water doesn't clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p24836 The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee. Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water > @"DavecUK"#p24839 water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter Seems it will require less frequent filter replacement. Will also look into RO. Thanks both.

> @"Knluk"#p24842 Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water With the Zero, it won't make much of a difference if you send (sodium) softened or unsoftened water through it - the ion-stripping is chemical, not physical as with RO. If you can pre-treat the water to remove some of the dissolved salts (and/or suspended solids), the Zero filter will last longer - but then you'll have the cost of two filters (the pre-treatment and the Zero), so I don't think it's going to make a difference there either.

> @"DavecUK"#p24839 because the softened water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter I understand. But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener? Is there any point? Isn’t the water already as “soft” as it can be?

Sorry. Need some spoon feeding on the topic of water

Knluk

dutchy101 is it necessary to store the jug in the fridge? Do you store your tesco filter water in the fridge too?

wonder if there is any differenc run quality in cup of the two receipe as yours seems simplistic.

dutchy101

I only store the Zero jug in the fridge. I keep the stored water in a dark cupboard. Not sure whether it’s necessary to store the Zero jug in the fridge, but I have the space to do so for the jug.

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk Yes - first de-ionise, then remineralise; for table salt, what you find at the supermarket is fine (preferably not sea salt). For the others, I used these guys on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/intralabs

Cuprajake

i use intralabs too, but i only use potassium bicarb as i dont want to descale my machine haha

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake I’m hoping that a combination of using only magnesium and frequent (6 weeks) water changes will help…

Cuprajake

for you or me?

i use the water tap daily, so quite happy about my through put of water :)

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake For me, for me. I also drain a cup of water in the evening, but inevitably over a few weeks the water does end up at (or just over) scaling point in the steam boiler, as it gets replaced with tank (brew) water. Which is why a ‘reload’ with pure water should help.

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l

KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l

NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

May I summarise my understanding? So

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l is for better taste. And the Magnesium can help avoiding scaling?
KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l - for avoid scaling and if use sodium bicarbonate can also enhance taste?
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l - for better taste

So, if I use potassium bicarbonate only, it should be free from scaling.

Alternatively, if I am using sodium carbonate, I should add the other two for scale avoidance and also enhancing taste.

CoyoteOldMan

For me, for me. I also drain a cup of water in the evening, but inevitably over a few weeks the water does end up at (or just over) scaling point in the steam boiler, as it gets replaced with tank (brew) water. Which is why a ‘reload’ with pure water should help.

Sorry I am really confused here. Does steam boiler has a scaling point? How can I check the point? Reload with pure water? Does it need to be mineralised pure water?

Cuprajake

If using potassium there should be nothing to scale. @DavecUK am I correct

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake Not Dave, but yes, you are totally correct. If you use R Pavlis’s recipe, no scale. I just like the flavour with Magnesium… (possibly a ‘problem’ due to my preference for dark roasts - we are finding Black Cat’s Chocolate Point a bit too acidic, even brewed at 90 °C)

dutchy101

Cuprajake

So no need to drain the service boiler after a period of time and draw water after steaming etc.?

The reason I went with sodium bicarbonate and zero water was it was simple andI could understand it.

Is it the same principle, as in adding the potassium to bring up alkalinity to the desireable level

DavecUK

Cuprajake If using potassium there should be nothing to scale. @DavecUK am I correct

You are correct, I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

LMSC

CoyoteOldMan Black Cat’s Chocolate Point

Wow! You may try 1 or 2C higher I pulled at 92/98.

I feed the default remineralised RO. On an average, over the last 1 year, , the feeding water had the general hardness of 9 mg/l, alkalinity of about 40 mg/l and TDS of 35-45. The steam water averaged about 18 mg/l to 20 mg/l, the alkalinity of 45 mg/l to 50 mg/l and the TDS of 75-80.

Cuprajake

dutchy101

Correct no need

It’s a very easy mix, make a concentrate. Then dose that to the water

10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

You can go more, you can go less.

I believe the thinking behind it is that coffee is full of potassium so you don’t notice it, while using different water influences the taste.

I’ve never really know any difference.

I could try using ashbeck for a month to see if I did I suppose.

CoyoteOldMan

dutchy101 Is it the same principle, as in adding the potassium to bring up alkalinity to the desireable level (67 mg/l)?

Sodium or potassium bicarbonate - same principle (re: alkalinity and scaling); just adjust to the different molecular weight. Only potential difference is that coffee is quite rich in potassium, so potassium is supposed to alter the taste less. Does it? I don’t know!

CoyoteOldMan

LMSC You may try 1 or 2C higher I pulled at 92/98.

Yep - that worked nicely, thank you! Acid tang gone.
I still prefer their Twilight blend… or even my usual Illy, as long as it’s fresh. I’m irredeemable, I know.

Knluk

DavecUK Bacterial contamination, .. it won’t last more than 3 days.

I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero.

So do you finish the 12-16 L in 3 days? Sorry for silly question. I think better to be safe than sorry for healthy related question.

Cuprajake

10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

Is these two sentences the same meaning?

DavecUK

, I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

I planned to start with a simple route of only dosing potassium carbonate but I am confused here. What is service boiler concentration? Refresh means draining all the water out then replace with new water?

DavecUK

CoyoteOldMan My belief is that sodium ions in the water allow the human taste buds to work better….as it is a “flavour enhancer”, or perhaps flavour suppressor might be a better term, allowing you to taste other flavours better. My belief is potassium does this also, but not as well as sodium.

Cuprajake

But does sodium scale?

CoyoteOldMan

Nope. Only calcium and magnesium (to any significant extent, at the temperatures, concentrations and pressures encountered in coffee making).

dutchy101

CoyoteOldMan

Great to know. Can stay as I am in that case

Cuprajake

Umm,

May try it next batch of water.

I used to use all this stuff for my marine fish

I’ll try to find the weights for the sodium bicarbonate, there’s also sodium carbonate which is stronger haha

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake I’m not sure that Na₂CO₃ will work as an alkaline buffer (i.e. stabilising acidity) - it will definitely modify pH and alkalinity, but it may well work.

For NaHCO₃ (sodium bicarbonate) instead of KHCO₃ , just multiply whatever weight you were using for potassium by 84% (i.e. 8.4 grams instead of your ‘usual’ 10 grams for the concentrate)

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