I am more a maths and physics guy and hate chemistry. I scanned through several thread of discussion on water from time to time but the contents were too heavy for me. I am currently using Volvic water on my Robot. Fri drinking water, I have hard water tap and Also have the Harvey’s water softener system (using salt). I am in the market for an espresso machine with boiler. As I learnt that volvic water also prone to scaling issue. So, I think it is better to make my own water(?) any advice in this and also what water system should I use given I already have the Harvey’s? Re the zero water, I read that I need to fill it with water all the time and put into fridge. That sounds a bit of inconvenience but I will try to work It out if it is the recommendation. Thanks!

RO, RODI, Distilled and Zero water, in no particular order. All remineralised before feeding into the machine.

I'd be interested in how soft a water softener makes water? I've been looking at softeners (not for coffee) but wondered if it would be an additional benefit

@"Dusk"#p24826 Water softeners work really well with RO.

@"Dusk"#p24826 Bear in mind that many softeners don't decrease the mineral content of water - they exchange calcium and magnesium ions (that can form scale) with sodium ions (that don't). The taste of "softened" water isn't necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee.

> @"DavecUK"#p24833 Water softeners work really well with RO. How? Isn’t RO water deprived of minerals, so there’s nothing to soften anyway? I’m now curious.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p24838 water softeners work very effectively with ro systems, because the softened water doesn't clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p24836 The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee. Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water > @"DavecUK"#p24839 water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter Seems it will require less frequent filter replacement. Will also look into RO. Thanks both.

> @"Knluk"#p24842 Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water With the Zero, it won't make much of a difference if you send (sodium) softened or unsoftened water through it - the ion-stripping is chemical, not physical as with RO. If you can pre-treat the water to remove some of the dissolved salts (and/or suspended solids), the Zero filter will last longer - but then you'll have the cost of two filters (the pre-treatment and the Zero), so I don't think it's going to make a difference there either.

> @"DavecUK"#p24839 because the softened water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter I understand. But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener? Is there any point? Isn’t the water already as “soft” as it can be?

Sorry. Need some spoon feeding on the topic of water

LMSC

OsmioWater I’m in the market for a used single group lever machine and a couple of commercial grinders if anyone knows of any for sale?

Lever

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvuis-evo-leva-for-sale

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/833-londinium-r-ps1950-with-londinium-preinfusion-module/7

I am not sure if the Londinium is sold or still available.

Grinder

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/177-mazzer-royal-83mm-tin-burrs-ps150

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/757-mazzer-royal-with-titanium-burrs/2

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam I think you are reading the ‘order of filtering’ the opposite way. Sending (sodium) softened water through an RO membrane is likely to make the RO filter last longer; sending RO water through a softener will - at best - result in nothing happening. At worst, you’ll end up with badly remineralised water (with an excess of sodium - I don’t know whether the ion-exchange resins are purely ‘exchanging’ on a solid surface or whether there are soluble compounds in the resin column).

***************
Never mind - same thing already addressed. Sorry, I should have read the whole thread rather than posting/responding
***************

Knluk

Just done some search on the RO system. Don’t think I know how to branch out from the outlet of the softener to make the plumping setup for that.

Though, I found the following. Has anyone considered buying RO water? It seems the cost is pretty acceptable. Any thoughts please?

https://pureklenz.co.uk/product/demineralised-water-25-litre/

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk a couple of things to consider:

They offer 3 grades of purity - prices ranging from ~50p/litre to ~75p/litre in 25 litre tanks. The only grade where they state “food production” is the most expensive one. It is possible that the de-ionised grade is fine, but I’d be wary of potential biological contamination (which seems to be the difference in treatment)
The cost of a Zerowater filter is £15 if you buy 2 (and even less if you buy more filters). With very hard water, you get 40 litres out of it, for a price/litre of about half as much (37.5 p/litre).
You need to store the 25 litre container somewhere, and keep it relatively sterile once it has been opened. Not impossible, but added fuss.

DavecUK

Knluk Bacterial contamination, especially once you open it, the water contains no chlorine. Even if you put it in the fridge it won’t last more than 3 days, and then you should drink it. But with a container that large you won’t be able to refrigerate it.

I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero, with filters costing me £40 per year.

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan oh. I thought I need to use RO, for which I have lack of plumping knowledge to connect the devices. Obviously, I was wrong. Will go for the ZeroWater route then. May I also get some advice on minimal to add please? Thanks again!

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan btw, what is your workflow for using zerowater? Do you filter a large amount of water say once a week and fill up the whole boiler? Do I need to keep water in the device during the week?

For my Robot, maybe I need a separate container to store the filtered water. Need to store in fridge?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener?

Putting softened water through an RO system, not the other way round. The RO strips out all the sodium carbonate.

Knluk

DavecUK Bacterial contamination, .. it won’t last more than 3 days.

I was filtering 12 to 16 l per day from an osmo zero.

So do you finish the 12-16 L in 3 days? Sorry for silly question. I think better to be safe than sorry for healthy related question.

Cuprajake

10g potassium bicarbonate to 1litre rodi/distilled water

Then 10g of the concentration to 1litre of rodi/distilled water for the machine.

Is these two sentences the same meaning?

DavecUK

, I don’t believe potassium carbonate scales….but over time the service boiler concentration will rise, at which point you should refresh the water once it gets above a level you are comfortable with.

I planned to start with a simple route of only dosing potassium carbonate but I am confused here. What is service boiler concentration? Refresh means draining all the water out then replace with new water?

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC No. I didn’t say that.

I know. My confusion was that I was trying to hack my brains to find why would one bother putting RO water through a water softener. But I understand it’s a benefit of putting softened water through an RO system. The initial comment which started this was written the other way round, to me at least. Anyway, water under the bridge (RO or Softened?) 🤣. It’s all clear now. :-)

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk some advice on minimal to add please?

I guess you mean ‘minerals to add’? What I use is

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l
KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

scale as you like (I use a concentrate).

Knluk what is your workflow for using zerowater?

Filter what I need when I need it - the Evo’s tank holds a bit less than 2.5 litres, and I use about half that every day (a lever is definitely “water wasteful”). I will check the machine in the morning, and make 1 or 1.5 litres of remineralised water to top up. It takes about 10-15 minutes to filter this much water.

Knluk Do I need to keep water in the device during the week?

Well, @dutchy101 got this advice from Zerowater, but I can’t find it on the website - I’m doing it, as it costs nothing: just fill the pitcher up after I fill the machine. What they do say is that keeping the pitcher in the fridge is not necessary, as long as it’s kept outside of sunlight.

dutchy101

As CoyoteOldMan states, ZeroWater advised me to keep the filter in water to get the most out of the filters when I asked them about this. I leave the jug full of water in the fridge.

I make up 2 batches of 5l of zero water at a time. I store this in old Tesco Ashbeck bottles, which I wash out with detergent each time after they are emptied and also steralise them with Milton once a month too. I do the same with the Zero jug too.

I add 320mg of sodium bicarbonate to 5L of zero water to bring the alkalinity into the desired range.

Knluk

yes :). Minerals sorry. I presume I have to add all these salts after I filter out the salt in the softened water? Let me look for those minerals in Amazon

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l

KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l

NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

May I summarise my understanding? So

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l is for better taste. And the Magnesium can help avoiding scaling?
KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l - for avoid scaling and if use sodium bicarbonate can also enhance taste?
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l - for better taste

So, if I use potassium bicarbonate only, it should be free from scaling.

Alternatively, if I am using sodium carbonate, I should add the other two for scale avoidance and also enhancing taste.

CoyoteOldMan

For me, for me. I also drain a cup of water in the evening, but inevitably over a few weeks the water does end up at (or just over) scaling point in the steam boiler, as it gets replaced with tank (brew) water. Which is why a ‘reload’ with pure water should help.

Sorry I am really confused here. Does steam boiler has a scaling point? How can I check the point? Reload with pure water? Does it need to be mineralised pure water?

Knluk

dutchy101 is it necessary to store the jug in the fridge? Do you store your tesco filter water in the fridge too?

wonder if there is any differenc run quality in cup of the two receipe as yours seems simplistic.

Cuprajake

@OsmioWater @hysaf is selling his evo lever for a great price

LMSC

Cuprajake I have already marked Mark the Evo sales thread and the grinders above! 😊

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk Yes - first de-ionise, then remineralise; for table salt, what you find at the supermarket is fine (preferably not sea salt). For the others, I used these guys on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/intralabs

dutchy101

I only store the Zero jug in the fridge. I keep the stored water in a dark cupboard. Not sure whether it’s necessary to store the Zero jug in the fridge, but I have the space to do so for the jug.

Cuprajake

i use intralabs too, but i only use potassium bicarb as i dont want to descale my machine haha

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake I’m hoping that a combination of using only magnesium and frequent (6 weeks) water changes will help…

Cuprajake

for you or me?

i use the water tap daily, so quite happy about my through put of water :)

CoyoteOldMan

Cuprajake For me, for me. I also drain a cup of water in the evening, but inevitably over a few weeks the water does end up at (or just over) scaling point in the steam boiler, as it gets replaced with tank (brew) water. Which is why a ‘reload’ with pure water should help.

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