My workflow of feeding the machine and keeping the scaling risk is good. I haven’t seen anything, which is a cause for concern, so far. Touch wood. **The current practice:** Feed the remineralised water straight from the OZ on demand; draw a cup after every steaming and do a full refresh every 3 months. Over 14 months, the GH range of the service boiler is 7 mg/l - 21 mg/l. I do think from time to time the following, when the Evo tank requires a refill, if I should do the following once a week: * Remove the mineralisation filter, * draw out the 1L water from the OZ Internal filter * Prep a concentrate of bicarb * Refill the Evo tank and add 8-10ml of concentrate * Draw another 5L of RO and keep it under the sink. We are probably ok during winter. I don’t think we need more than 7.5L a week of RO even if we draw a small cup after every steam. The question: Will the 5L water, if kept at the room temperature, be fit for consumption? Are there any health risks? My wife thinks it is a bad idea, and asked why change the routine when things seem under control; she recommends keeping it simple and continue the current practice, unless required. She does have a point.

> @"DavecUK"#p25502 This is way overthinking things. While you have maintained the decorum, my wife gave me a cold stare and rolled her eyes suggesting ![Giphy - Kate Hudson GIF by The Roku Channel](https://media3.giphy.com/media/H2pGvZcbk7uXzPbGM8/giphy.gif?cid=bb77869ftre5gzo4u67ha77itm824yzieyzxttaq2763vkwx&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) > @"DavecUK"#p25502 boroscope inside his steam boiler, I don’t think you would see any scale formation. Seriously? Is it because the scale would have formed and coated around the boiler like a thin film?

@"LMSC"#p25538 On the outside of the boiler though?

Keep the Osmio Zero water (without mineralisation)

LMSC

My workflow of feeding the machine and keeping the scaling risk is good. I haven’t seen anything, which is a cause for concern, so far. Touch wood.

The current practice:

Feed the remineralised water straight from the OZ on demand; draw a cup after every steaming and do a full refresh every 3 months. Over 14 months, the GH range of the service boiler is 7 mg/l - 21 mg/l.

I do think from time to time the following, when the Evo tank requires a refill, if I should do the following once a week:

Remove the mineralisation filter,
draw out the 1L water from the OZ Internal filter
Prep a concentrate of bicarb
Refill the Evo tank and add 8-10ml of concentrate
Draw another 5L of RO and keep it under the sink. We are probably ok during winter.

I don’t think we need more than 7.5L a week of RO even if we draw a small cup after every steam.

The question:

Will the 5L water, if kept at the room temperature, be fit for consumption? Are there any health risks?

My wife thinks it is a bad idea, and asked why change the routine when things seem under control; she recommends keeping it simple and continue the current practice, unless required. She does have a point.

DavecUK

This is way overthinking things. If David had put a borescope inside his steam boiler, I don’t think you would see any scale formation. Osmio is meant to have a cartridge in the remineralisation area, just check the water path of the cartridge. Use a blank one or sterilise an old one and keep using till it wears out.

However, I don’t believe you need to keep removing the remineralisation cartridge, which also means removing and refitting the filters each time.

LMSC

DavecUK This is way overthinking things.

While you have maintained the decorum, my wife gave me a cold stare and rolled her eyes suggesting

Giphy - Kate Hudson GIF by The Roku Channel

DavecUK boroscope inside his steam boiler, I don’t think you would see any scale formation.

Seriously? Is it because the scale would have formed and coated around the boiler like a thin film?

dfk41

LMSC I think what Dave meant, was that there would be no scale inside the boiler. Simply because there is scale on the outside, signifies that the leak has dripped away and evaporated for a considerable amount of time leaving the deposits that you see. I do not know for sure, but I think Osmio designed the Zero work without changing filters and remineralising on a regular basis. I have ordered one of those measuring things but I am pretty confident the scale build up is nothing to do with the Osmio underperforming!

LMSC

I spoke to OZ today. During the course of the chat, we spoke about the composition of the mineralisation cartridge. They drew my attention to a few things that can make up the final hardness of the mineralised RO from the OZ.

Feeding hot water, depending on how hard the water is, might have a higher hardness in the pure RO vs the RO hardness from soft/softened water.
A lack of descaling of the RO system will have an impact on the hardness content of the RO water
The silver-costed mineralisation cartridge has calcium and magnesium and is likely to add about 10-20 ppm as CaCO3 to the RO water. This depends on how long the minerals were in contact with the water.
If anyone wants to run the unit without the mineral cartridge, it can be done after replacing it with a blank cartridge. Otherwise, the unit will leak.

So, it does make sense to test, from time to time, the mineralised RO water from Osmio Zero to get an idea of the general hardness. Feeding a hard water may have a higher hardness content than the soft / softened water. The risk of scaling also differs in every one of our machines.

LMSC

dfk41 I have ordered one of those measuring things but I am pretty confident the scale build up is nothing to do with the Osmio underperforming!

I am also sure it isn’t anything to do with OZ.

It’s a build over time as you say.

In addition, we also know regular steaming and a lack of regular flushing / refreshing will accumulate minerals. 😊

dfk41

LMSC On the outside of the boiler though?

LMSC

dfk41 Good question mate! It’s the issue surrounding the inlet complicates it.

Did the water leak outside at the L joint around the inlet or the water leak inside out (when it boils) or both? I would think it is inside out - more hardness deposits as we steamed and not flushed.

The bottom line is - you are good now. With regular flushing, either a cup a day as some of us do or full monthly flush as MRS suggested should do. Only thing is our first two batches of machines’ pipe does not go all the way down to allow a full flesh thru’ the hot water tap.

You may ask Systemic’s routine to ascertain the best way to manage as I have also installed a drain valve.

JahLaza

While this is hot, I thought I’d ask something I’ve wondered about for a while. I only use osmio zero with re mineralisation cartridge. I hardly ever steam, maybe once every two weeks or less (I do intend to get more into it though!). I have refreshed the steam boiler water two or three times since getting the Vesuvius about 6 months ago just as a precaution for stale water purposes. Yesterday I removed the remineralisation cartridge, emptied the osmio tank, and refilled the Vesuvius with just ro water after flushing the steam boiler tank out. I will continue using remineralised water as usual from here. Couple of questions:

How often should I refresh this water
How often does the osmio remineralisation cartridge last

Cheers

LMSC

JahLaza Dave has been using RO for more than 10-12 years. He has plenty of actual usage experience than any of us. I am sure, he will advise you.

IMO, your refresh cycle is more than sufficient;

Re-the mineralisation filter, it should starts losing its’ potency steadily. It depends on how much water you draw from the unit. We draw at least 10-12 litres a day and more during week ends. Ours’ loses its utility in 6 months. Ex: the TDS when we changed the filter in March was 50-60+. Now, it is about 30! However, we won’t change until it shows change filter or the anniversary month in Feb/March

Hope it helps. Don’t think it does anything significant.

JahLaza

LMSC thanks for that. I use the osmio with remineralisation as my water source. I assumed that was fine and would not cause scaling even if I steamed every day, assuming an approximate alkalinity of 40mg/l and gh around that too. Don’t want to start another one of these conversations here now!! But, in simple terms I figured remineralised osmio will be fine- plug and play. I also figured I’ve less to worry about seeing as I steam so seldom. I guess that thought was challenged when I saw @dfk41’s photo here but even that isn’t clear cut as noted by @DavecUK that the boiler is probably fine inside. I changed my filters last November and intend to leave alone until I get a warning light to change them or around November seeing as a year has been suggested as a good time to change them if they last that long (I noticed it was stated here before that from a bacterial point of view that’s recommended). That prompted my question about the lifespan of the remin cartridge but don’t think it will be an issue if it’s done before the others either way. I sterilise it with blank cartridges (and Milton tablets) about half yearly. I’m still very pleased with the osmio and am curious to see if I get the year from the filters, my tap water is about 220 mg/l gh I think

Rob1

JahLaza

40mg/l kh:gh will scale feeding a service boiler…usually. Because usually alkalinity is from carbonate sources, and most hardness is too.

In the case of the Osmio and the remineralisation cartridge, I’m not sure that’s the case. I’m reasonably sure I’ve heard bits and pieces about “organic” sources of minerals, amino acids and ceramics. So you’ll get at least some carbonate alkalinity from your water supply remaining in the RO, and whatever additional alkalinity you get from whatever is in the filter. Scale will be limited to whatever carbonate alkalinity there is present anyway…

JahLaza

Rob1 I guess I’m looking for the least amount of faff and least risk to the coffee machine (for now with two young kids etc.!) Keeping remineralisation will satisfy the general water taste for the house and indeed for the americanos but refresh the steam boiler periodically (as stated above). A bit more frequently when I start improving my latte art and steam more often! That should keep things right?

Edit: didn’t see LMSC ‘s response above before this post

LMSC

@Rob1 Please see this post of mine above. The details of the mineralisation cartridge are provided by Osmio Zero, when I spoke to them on the phone. The minerals are calcium carbonate.

I spoke to OZ today. During the course of the chat, we spoke about the composition of the mineralisation cartridge. They drew my attention to a few things that can make up the final hardness of the mineralised RO from the OZ.

Feeding tap water, depending on how hard the water is, might have a higher hardness in the pure RO vs the RO hardness from soft/softened water.
A lack of descaling of the RO system will have an impact on the hardness content of the RO water
The silver-costed mineralisation cartridge has calcium and magnesium and is likely to add about 10-20 ppm as CaCO3 to the RO water. This depends on how long the minerals were in contact with the water.
If anyone wants to run the unit without the mineral cartridge, it can be done after replacing it with a blank cartridge. Otherwise, the unit will leak.

Rob1

LMSC

Yeah, I saw that but it doesn’t mention anything about calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate being in the filter. Everyone who has asked previously has been met with reluctance to say exactly what is in the remineralisation filter in definitive terms. Everything I’ve heard in the past is what is in the osmio is not a carbonate source of magnesium or calcium and will not cause scale (a flat statement you could only ever make if you didn’t use carbonate sources), that the water has a negative orp value, and that the calcium and magnesium added by the osmio is from organic bioavailable sources (a term used to refer to non carbonate sources of calcium e.g calcium gluconate). That the filters add 10-20ppm hardness as CaCO3 doesn’t mean they actually add any CaCO3…..maybe things have changed since people last made enquiries a couple of years ago though.

The numbers above for pure RO suggest about 13.5mg/l KH from carbonates will remain in the water but this depends on what you put in, obviously.

@JahLaza - Pulling water for americanos and refreshing the service boiler regularly should do the trick.

LMSC

@Rob1 Some average numbers of Osmio zero seen over the last 1 year

Pure RO - Based on 40 ml sample

GH 2 drops avg = 4.48 mg/l

KH 6 drops avg = 13.43 mg/l

TDS 14

Temp 22.4C

With mineralisation RO 40 ml sample (6 Month old - current)

GH 4 drops avg = 8.96 mg/l

KH 14 drops avg = 31.33 mg/l

TDS 54

Fresh mineralisation filter RO 40 ml filter (New filter)

GH 8drops avg = 17-19 mg/l

KH 14 drops avg = 45-50 mg/l

TDS 78-80

Steam Boiler water tested yesterday

GH avg = 6.71 mg/l - The top of the range over 14 months is 21 mg/l

KH average 40.28 mg/l - the top of the range over 14 months is 51 mg/l

TDS 66

Temp 24.4+

I do a quarterly refresh.

JahLaza

Rob1 thanks for this. I didn’t mean I pull water from the Vesuvius for americanos, I use remineralised water from the osmio to top up espresso for americanos. I’ve only refreshed the steam boiler three times I think since owning it 6 months or so but I don’t steam that much

CoyoteOldMan

JahLaza The more mineralised water (i.e. not steam) you pull out of the service boiler, the lower the concentration of salts in it - if you also use it for steaming - so making americanos is not a bad use for it!

[All else being equal, obviously, and unless you do what Rob1 does - i.e. empty and refill the steam boiler with distilled/deionised water]

LMSC

JahLaza I think your routine is fine. You hardly use your service and doing a quarterly flush to remove the static water.

IMO, depending on what feeds the OZ, the pure RO is as close as you can get to the distilled. We feed softened water. The result is what I posted above. This should be good as a regular refresh.

LMSC

@Rob1

The description of the mineralisation filter on their website is as follows:

Quick-Change Insertion Filters: Hygiene After-filter antibacterial calcium and magnesium bioceramics, adding a small 10-20 ppm of minerals.

Not sure, it clarifies anything without the actual content!