Good afternoon, and condolences to our British friends who lost their queen. I am Italian and I just moved to the UK. I have to buy a bean-to-cup machine (the reason why is s a long story) but I much prefer filter coffee, as brewed by Technivorm KB741. Can someone recommend which of these all-in-one makers comes closest to a filter coffee flavour and taste? Sage Oracle Touch JURA E8 De'Longhi Prima Donna Elite (chocolate, cold coffee and cold milk froth) De'Longhi Prima Donna Soul One (more options for longer brews, including coffee pot) Melitta Barista TS SMART Other ? Thank you in advance for your time and expertise. Tommaso

@"ascanio1"#p27031 Welcome to the forum! I doubt if you will get a serious B2C recommendation on this forum, without understand the why! Would you mind briefly setting out the reasons please? Thx Edit : If you want a filter / pour over, please get a V60, Clever, … ; a separate grinder; and, of course some good coffee beans! :-)

I do remember vaguely quite some time ago Dave C did a review on a melitta machine? Apologies if my memory serves me badly Dave.

@"coffeealex"#p27040 it serves you well, but like @"LMSC"#16 I would also like to understand the reason. It's very hard to recommend anything without understanding.

@"LMSC"#p27035 good morning and thank you for the welcome! The reason is that my wife (i) refuses to clutter our kitchen counter and (ii) wants a machine that can produce different coffee based drinks as cappuccino. She's entitle to both these conditions because we recently moved to England to a home of my preference that has a smaller kitchen than another home that she preferred and I restored my grandfather's classic car, which cost us quite a bit. The compromise was a toy for me and a toy for her! Mine is way more costly so, we agreed, we would spend any amount of money on her coffee maker. I managed to obtain that we would choose the one that makes the closest iteration to a filter coffee. In the morning she has no space to cook breakfast because of my choice of home/kitchen, if I "*play around*" on the kitchen counter. Also, she has been wanting an all-in-one cappuccino and other coffee based drinks machine for for years but I have always resisted it. I hope that this explains why it is already decided that it will be a bean-to-cup machine, and that the only thing that I can do is damage control. I can reduce the damage by choosing the B2C that brews the closest coffee to what I like (filter) 🤷🏻♂️ Marriage is the art of compromise!

A friend owns a De Longhi PrimaDonna Elite but owned a Sage Oracle beforehand. He claims that the former brews a closer iteration to a proper filter coffee, because the osmosis and brewing happens over a longer time, and without any pressure, if one makes the appropriate selection. Does anyone have insights, into the different brewing systems/methods of those five B2C machines or others?

I don't think many on here use that method tbh So you may struggle for a good answer

@"ascanio1"#p27068 Thank you! I appreciate your detailed reasons. I remember @"DavecUK"#1 mentioning elsewhere a few years ago that his 80+ grandma loves Melitta. They have some deals going on at the moment. https://www.melitta.co.uk/products/coffee-machines/bean-to-cup-machines/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOKC4veg-gIVBGHmCh0jDQ2AEAAYASAAEgJPVfD_BwE&p=1 Oracle touch will cost you about £1500. I never owned a B2C. However, I have had loads of coffee of all types from them including from my current work place of 9 years. They have over a dozen very expensive B2C machines reeling out espresso to all milk-based coffee. I never liked them and ended up disliking coffee completely. My view is therefore likely to be biased. My concern with the B2C would be reliability, after warranty service + parts and the quality of the coffee from them. I am not sure espresso to a long black / an Americano from B2C can mirror the flavours and the quality of pour overs from a V60 or a Clever. If you want a filter coffee, please get a grinder, buy some good coffee and filter accessories. Please don’t expect these machines to match the filter. They are different IMO. Can the B2C grind light to medium? How would the coffee be if you prefer these? The space is often a premium for most of us. You can get a compact dual boiler (Elizabeth) or Mara X. They are very fast and quiet. You can get the Niche Zero or something else as a single dose grinder. This combination will serve you guys well, if you look after them! The grinder and good water are very important. They won’t take much space. @"MediumRoastSteam"#51 has this set up at home as his space is very limited. How many coffees do you guys make with and without milk a day? We all comprise at home. We want to put a smile on our family members’ faces as much as possible. But, with all respect, your wife might not be aware or realise she can make all types of coffee (far better than what we get from B2C or coffee shops), with a bit of practice, with the machines like Liz and a good grinder. A separate espresso machine and a grinder is also perfect compromise - your wife can make what ever she likes and you don’t have to worry about closer to filter! I am sure Dave and other experienced members will share their thoughts and recommendations. In the end, choose well based on the requirements! GL!!! :-)

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/ https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/10/26/melitta-caffeo-varianza-tech-tour-videos/ I liked the internal system of the Melitta, especially as you could clean the brew unit properly and avoid the mould that would inevitably build up if you couldn't get to it. Unfortunately milk frothing was sub-optimal and gave a froth that was too cool, which you had then had to heat up the drink in the microwave for 20 seconds. Melitta then made a bad move, by removing the actual milk frothing wand from the other machines in their range, which meant the only option was the suboptimal frothing systems of the Varianza

Sorry - I can't help other than with the observation that I had a Miele B2C (a long time ago; the model is not even made anymore), and I could never get anything drinkable out of it in any form. Same for the large Jura machines we had in the office, though there I suspect the coffee beans had as much or more demerit as the machines themselves. However… if I understand the situation right, and your wife likes cappuccino and other espresso-based milk drinks (macchiato, flat white etc.) I think you may be better served by getting a hand grinder and a filter pot for yourself, and getting something that makes the best possible B2C espresso - not least because the requirements of doing decent filter and decent espresso-based milk drinks in terms of bean type, grinding fineness, temperature and other settings are so different that doing both on the same machine could mean a heck of a lot of faff with emptying of hoppers, changing of beans, purging, re-setting of parameters and dialing-in… every time the other person wants a coffee. For the space of a V60 and a hand grinder, that can be kept in a cupboard, IMHO not worth it. You may find these two videos by James Hoffmann interesting, although they don't touch on any of the models you mention above other than the possibly the Melitta. However, he does talk about some of the points to look for when buying a B2C machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZEM1cC86t8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6yWOyNq0uw

Which bean-to-cup machine brews closest taste to a filter coffee ... ?

LMSC

ascanio1 yes, then could I not use that option to add ground coffee in a filter, inside a very basic filter holder on top of a cup and press hot water only?

I have no idea if this is even possible. Assuming there is a way out,

what filter do you propose to use?
Where do you propose to store this filter?
Would you not need a filter paper, without which you will get silts into the cup.
How is it different to getting a £6 V60, thrown in a paper filter, add powder and water like JH does in his youtube V60 video?
I am sure we all have a water kettle, except some of the old blokes here use their RO machine to dispense hot water! 😊

Some of us struggle to understand that somebody has got time to grind the power from B2C, grab a filter, pour water and get a filter coffee into the mug; but, can’t do that with V60. It takes as much space as the filter you are mentioning, unless you are looking for an integrated filter. :-)

The choices:

Getting a B2C from your list for as much money as you have and go from there
Or, get something from here or here or here. Some of these won’t cut with your lack of time.

I have no idea how good or otherwise they are!

GL mate!

ascanio1

LMSC Thank you for offering your help.

As I repeated a few times before, there is no space on the kitchen counter. If necessary I can post a picture! That little counter space will be used, simoultaneously, by my wife preparing breakfast and me brewing coffee. I appreciate that some “struggle to understand that somebody has got time to grind the power from B2C, grab a filter, pour water and get a filter coffee into the mug; but, can’t do that with V60” and also I would, but short of making a video it is complicated to explain how little space we have, and how we keep bumping into each other. And, no, we do not have a kettle on the counter, we have a toaster. Because of space constraints we keep the kettle in a cupboard and replace the toaster in case of need.

So, this is the filter holder that I would place under the hot water spout of the B2C, in place of the cup, after I brewed my wife’s coffee. It takes me 2 minutes brewing time and about one minute drip. But this will be possible only if the B2C will be able to grind sufficiently coarse coffee, and if the B2C will be able to dispense it into a filter/filter holder.

Hence my request if anyone knows of a B2C that can grind the beans and deliver them for use in a separate brew.

This would have been the perfect solution if it had the option to brew also cappuccino, caffé’latte, etc. with a single button and if it had the grinder incorporated in the body. I will try to convince my wife to consider this unit, but …

hornbyben

ascanio1 the whole machine is designed for espresso. I don’t know know exactly how course sorry, but I know there are several positions available on the machine dial, and you can adjust inside.

Regarding retention, the grinder is not single dose, it’s designed to use a hopper. This means when you change grind size you’d need to purge several grams of coffee out to get rid of the old stuff.

I know you seem against the idea of a hand grinder, and at the end of the day it’s your kitchen and your choice, but most coffee machines have space on top for cups (or a hand grinder & filter 😉). 30-60s of hand grinding is going to be quicker than messing around changing grind sizes, purging etc.

I think if you really don’t have the space, the only practical solution is to give up on your filter preference and learn to like an espresso based drink so that you use the same machine.

ascanio1

hornbyben Thank you for your suggestion. I am considering this with a grinder on top. The challenge is that my wife might not like the idea of having to grind the coffee separately and, anyway, not being offered the various coffee based drinks as a one button solution.

This coffee all-in-one is her idea and her toy and I want to please her as we bought a toy was a classic car for my enjoyment. The deal was that I get the car and she gets a B2C, to replace our Technivorm KB741 + grinder (Baratza Esatto).

Gagaryn

ascanio1 That clever dripper would not fit under a B2C water spout. Certainly not with a cup underneath!

I understand that your priorities are space driven and that your wife demands hassle free convenient cappucino. That means compromises are required. B2C machines make espresso based drinks - not filter. If you also want to make filter that will need to be made separately on separate equipment which you just don’t have space for.

If I was you, I’d get the wife the B2C machine - it’s what you promised her after all, and simply forgo any attempt to make filter at the same time as you simply don’t have the space. Compromise is required - you got the car, now you can only have filter when your wife is not also using the kitchen.

hornbyben

ascanio1 I may be unfairly judging the delonghi, but I can’t help but think it will be mediocre to poor at everything, but then you have asked your question on a coffee forum, which means by default we’re going to be very picky.

Have you considered just getting an nespresso machine? While they won’t give you everything you could get with a manual espresso setup, they are very convenient, very easy to use, have a small footprint and there’s a reason they dominate the home coffee market

ascanio1

hornbyben I want discerning advice. I may not like what I read or I may like it and be unable to obtain it, but I want picky members. Otherwise I would listen to any store advisor…

Nespresso has a few flaws: pods which cost a bomb, few drink options, no grinder.

LMSC

As someone advised, given all the limitations, compromising filter and learning to drink espresso or Americano looks easier to achieve.

Btw, that clever will also require a paper filter. I think you already mentioned it elsewhere.

I don’t know if you already mentioned, is there a utility room?

ascanio1

LMSC Thank you for your help!

Yes, that clever requires paper filter but delivers very good coffee, providing I can grind the correct coarseness. We have a garage with a loft. And, if I cannot come up with a solution, of course, I will have to learn to like Americano …

Budget is not an issue but, of course, I will not spend £2,500 for something that will not deliver what I want, if I can make my wife happy with £300! Our decision process is segregated by compartments. First we look for a machine that can deliver what I want (filter + B2C). If we find one, then its price is not a concern. If we do not find one, then we will buy the cheapest B2C that will make excellent cappuccino & caffé’latter.

Therefore, the Lelit Elizabeth might be the one that we end up buying if it delivers excellent cappuccino & CL and is a full B2C!

We are new to the area (Newbury) so we do not have a chance to test friend’s B2Cs! Had I known of BellaBarista last week, I would have paid a visit: I drove to Olney (between Northampton and Milton Keynes) on Tuesday!

I already asked my wife read these discussions but she trusts my selection process and is not too interested to get involved. The irony being that she’s not fussy about coffee as I am but insists for a quick, all-in-one, with lots of drink options.

LMSC

If budget is not an issue, this may put a huge smile on your wife’s face. But, still may not get you what you want.

https://www.miele.co.uk/e/countertop-coffee-machine-cm-7750-coffeeselect-obsidian-black-10969350-p?neocom_source=51c8386b-604d-4056-87e0-ff31083f424c

FWIW, for half the cost, Lelit Elizabeth is a no brainer. It’s fantastic, small, faster, quicker and makes a top quality cup, except it’s not a one touch. Our @MediumRoastSteam can tell you all about this. We know what your replies are!

Perhaps, if any one around your area has a machine like ours’ it might be worth paying a visit with your wife. Or, visit BellaBarista as you are living in the UK, better still perhaps have a cup each from B2C and our type of machine and let her see for herself.

She might be in a better position to appreciate that her best interests are best served by looking at the whole thing differently. May be, you might ask her to read this thread, if you haven’t shown her these discussions and only if you don’t mind. :-)

Where about in the UK?

ascanio1

Gagaryn Ciao Gagaryn, I would put the Clever without a cup underneath as the Clever has a valve so it can be used, itself, as a cup.

As you say, I should come around to the idea of giving up, and enjoying an Americano in the morning and, in the afternoon, pull out my Clever and use an Illy coffee, ground specifically for use with a filter brewer.

MediumRoastSteam

Happy wife = happy life. Keep the monstrosity (read: the bean to cup machine) in the kitchen and buy yourself for a significant lower price a hand grinder and a clever dripper. That can be easily stowed away neatly almost anywhere.

You promised her. Now you have to deliver. 🤪 - you definitely got the better side of the bargain!

ascanio1

MediumRoastSteam Yep! You are 100% right. A promise is a promise and a happy wife = a happy life. I did get the better side of the bargain.

CoyoteOldMan

ascanio1 Therefore, the Lelit Elizabeth might be the one that we end up buying if it delivers excellent cappuccino & CL and is a full B2C!

We are new to the area (Newbury)

It will deliver excellent drinks, but it’s definitely not a B2C. You need a grinder with it.

If that is not a killer, I think there are forum members with an Elizabeth living near you…

LMSC

ascanio1 clever requires paper filter but delivers very good coffee

Clever and V60 and at times the French Press are my filters. The Clever (paper filter and SwissGold) mostly for a long steep with a fine grind and the V60 as a daily routine.

ascanio1 Had I known of BellaBarista last week, I would have paid a visit: I drove to Olney (between Northampton and Milton Keynes) on Tuesday!

You could always give them a call, fix a convenient time (if required) and go as a day trip on a week end with your family. :-)

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