Hi all, So far have narrowed down search from upgrade my Rocket Cellini to below options: ECM Synchronika Quickmill Vetrano 2B Evo La Marzocco Linea Mini ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva Now the first two are standard E61 double boiler machines and the LMLM is a high end semi auto and the last one is a manual lever based machine with some features like boiler and steam. Hard to decide which to pick to make upgrade to my Rocket Cellini. My concern is support, reliability, ease of use and fun factor in pulling great shots and I make mostly milk based espresso drinks.

@"sacguy71"#p28375 Let me help you decide. 1. Where in the world are you? 2. How much is your budget (The LMLM is a lot more expensive than the others, at least in the UK); 3. Do you like the E61? 4. Do you care about fast warm up time? 5. Do you care about very precise and fast responsive temperature control? 6. Have you also considered the Lelit Bianca? 7. What do you like about the LMLM? 8. Have you ever used a lever machine? 9. Are you hands on when coming to maintenance of espresso machines? Would be interesting to know your rationale when narrowing down to those machines.

@"sacguy71"#p28375 In terms of ease of use and fun, I'd say that a lever is hard to beat. Then again, I'm biased (and I haven't really used any of the others).

@"sacguy71"#p28375 Not enough info but I would suggest changing the list a bit: 1. Lelit Bianca (Beats the Snycho easy spec wise and feature set) 2. ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva (Decent Lever machine in that price range) 3. Rocket R9 One (Near the LMLM price and get a better feature set). Using this one personnely after upgrading from a Lelit Bianca.

Only one machine on that list I'd choose

Bianca if E61 group, Evo if lever. BTW, there is a lever still available on our classifieds. It’s a steal at asking.

1/ northern California Sacramento area 2/ Budget under 10k but would prefer keep it below 5k if possible 3. yes it is fine 4/ yes want fast warm up time 5/ yes want control over those variables 6/ yes but heard complaints on build quality 7/ design and powerful steam and great quality machine 8/ no but I have a cheap Flair 58 coming tomorrow to test before spending on expensive lever machine 9/ not really but need to learn @"MediumRoastSteam"#p28376

Don't worry about Bianca build quality, I have 3 of them, 2 of which have no problems and one I have to unbox and set up. Lovely machines, as is the Vesuvius Evo Lever, if you want to enter lever land (genuine 15m warm up too).

@"sacguy71"#p28382 Bear in mind that a manual lever and a spring lever are rather different... certainly in terms of ease-of-use. I hope you'll enjoy using the Flair tomorrow!

@"DavecUK"#p28383 how is the steam power on the Bianca for frothing milk? Can it get nice microfoam?

> @"sacguy71"#p28385 how is the steam power on the Bianca for frothing milk? Can it get nice microfoam? @"Cuprajake"#144 can tell you more. I've actually done it myself (again, at Dave's!), and it's great. Same goes for the ACS Eva Leva, and, in all honesty, I'm sure all the other machines you listed are very capable of excellent microfoam too. That's the least of your worries!

Looking for next level espresso machine

DavecUK

And yet today I’m wearing my 20 year old, fake steel worn of the plastic lugs, scratched plastic watch glass…super accurate Casio solar atomic 🤣

Total cost of ownership £2 per annum…up to now.

DavecUK

Or, out of all the machines I have, using the simple Puristika

mathof2

The suggestion that espressos made with all reasonably competent machines taste the same goes against the perception that lever machines make “softer” coffees and that profiling machines allow one to get the best out of difficult-to-extract light roasts.

The car analogy of all cars getting their occupants to the same destination only holds true if the road is smooth. There are places where only a 4×4 will get you to your destination at all.

DavecUK

mathof2 I was talking about standard machines, not advanced levers or pressure profiling.

E.g I believe an Evo shot to be astounding, great thermal control and the je ne quois of the LSM lever group. Hard to match, impossible to beat. If my Alpha was still working, I’d be using it.

Cuprajake

After a certain budget you getting great coffees.

It’s what floats your boat and how big your wallet/ego is after that.

I’m not a brand snob by any means but some things are worth their price some things not. That goes with any hobby

I work with cars for a living and the price of some cars now eye watering. Some worth it some not.

CoyoteOldMan

DavecUK What would it take to get it working again? A new group, I guess, as you said the old one was leaky. Anything else?

DavecUK

CoyoteOldMan I need an entire new machine really. It was thrown together from scrap, even the lever arm is bent and the case has no bottom, plus all standard Vesuvius reinforcement was removed!

However to get it going I need to fix the leak inside, don’t know where from, replace the lower half of the group because the heating element within the group, was never fitted correctly and one of them failed. This would also fix the leaking group, because mine has The old valve system that is worn out anyway.

The worst problem is the machine is not compartmentalized like yours and was built in such a way that any repair requires complete disassembly of the machine, even a vacuum breaker change!

I don’t even have the correct pressurestat to go higher than 1.7 pi.

Plus it’s not something I want to photo, video or help people from as it no longer reacts like a production machine. It really was just a proof of concept.

sacguy71

All good points, gents. I started with a cheap Breville machine and moved up to a Rocket Cellini eight years ago for espresso making. Right now, the Rocket is getting repaired with new gaskets and a new pump. I am using a cheap $10 phin filter to brew espresso Vietnamese style and the coffee tastes fantastic! That said, it does not make lattes or fancy just to get me by until I get another machine and my Rocket back and repaired. I have a cheap Flair lever machine arriving today to see if lever machines are for me or not. That said, if I like levers, will look at custom order a new ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva machine direct from Italy. ACS has been responsive and patient with my questions. Cost would be on par with a high end semi auto machine but the videos make it look so amazing! Also considering ECM Synchronika as I like the looks and gauges above so easy to view and joystick controls plus build quality looks solid. Both would keep me under 4k and on par with La Marzocco machine quality I think. Yes, luxury goods like high end brands cost. I have a BMW and love it but it is not cheap to buy and own. Same with custom guitars and watches.

Ernie1

sacguy71

Not even just custom guitars these days… friend of mine bought an off the shelf US Telecaster recently, cost him almost £2k…

I paid £549 for my US Strat!

That said, it was about 20 years ago 😅

Good luck with the espresso machine decision, with your shortlist, doesn’t seem like there’s really a ‘wrong decision.’

Cuprajake

Giphy - reservoir dogs film GIF by Lionsgate Home Entertainment

sacguy71

Indeed the Fender strat that I bought recently cost almost 2k but it was a USA artist signature model. My Flair lever machine arrived today and put it to first time and worked great. I do have to get used to press down on the lever and hold constant pressure to get the 5-9 bars maintained for 30 seconds to pull the shot but it tasted decent with crema and even old beans. I used my Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder and that works fine. So for the powered lever machines, do you have to press and hold down for 30-40 seconds as well to maintain constant 5-9 bars of pressure for the shot like I do on the manual Flair lever machine? Just curious.

CoyoteOldMan

sacguy71 So for the powered lever machines, do you have to press and hold down for 30-40 seconds as well to maintain constant 5-9 bars of pressure for the shot like I do on the manual Flair lever machine?

No - the spring provides the brewing pressure, and it does so in a very consistent way, to the point that you don’t even need scales to measure how much liquid is in the cup (if you have a brew chamber manometer).

You pull the lever down all the way, and load the spring “in your own time” - water gets in the brew chamber at “low” pressure (mains/pump) while you are doing that. When you release the lever, the spring force pressurises the water and, as the water gets through the puck, the lever is gradually released back to its vertical position.

If you want, you can ‘pressure profile’ a bit by speeding up/delaying the movement of the lever on its return path, but normally you just let the spring do its job.

MediumRoastSteam

sacguy71 So for the powered lever machines, do you have to press and hold down for 30-40 seconds as well to maintain constant 5-9 bars of pressure for the shot like I do on the manual Flair lever machine? Just curious

With no disrespect or intent to be disrespectful, one of the machines you shortlisted in your open post is the Vesuvius Evo leva, and others.

Before you spend the money and go ahead with the purchase for any of the machines, it would be a good idea for you to read on and watch as many videos of how any of those machines work, maintenance complexity and requirements, to avoid surprises and disappointments afterwards.

Just an honest thought. Good luck with making a choice. It’s a great position to be in.

sacguy71

MediumRoastSteam agree 100%

in fact I am binge watching every video this weekend on lever based machines and still a challenge to pick what model to buy. Anyhow so far having fun with my Flair lever machine and while the workflow is a little effort to heat the brew head and portafilter in bowl of hot water and add hot water to assembled brew head from my goose neck kettle, the lever action is a fun arm workout and tasty shots! I want reliability, good customer support, ease of maintenance and use and fun powerful lever action with cool tools like PID and shot timer.

Eiffel

sacguy71

If you want a lever with a shot timer for less than $/£/€ 10,000 this reduces your choices drastically, as the Nurri is the only machine that fits the bill (The ACS Evo Leva has a group pressure gauge which offers a way to consistently reach a given drink weight/coffee grounds weight… which is ultimately what matters, but it doesn’t have a timer).

Of course, you could add your own stick-on or magnetic timer and trigger it manually, but this option exists with every machine including the one you already have

Cuprajake

@“sacguy71” are you renaissance man?

tompoland

Odyssey Espresso’s Argos is another one to look at although it’s still unproven so there is more risk. But it offers both 6 and 9 bar springs or direct lever options. I think those options make it the first of its kind.

MackOT

I had ECM sychronika with flow control for 6 months. Now I have ACS Evo Leva for a month. Here is my takes on both machines.

ECM

Well built. They know how to built the machine. Fit and finished is what you pay for.
Consistency which means if you dial the coffee properly and good puck prep., the machine will always produce good espresso. However if you have and use flow control, that is different story. I do not like the flow control on the ECM. Very finicky.
The Machine is not too tall. So you can put it anywhere.

ACS Evo Leva

Take awhile to get it deliver. You can’t just pick it up from distributor. It need to be order. However the process is easy and The customer service is really responsive.
It is heavy and the tall. My wife said not in MY kitchen.😀
The basket is not 58mm. So whatever 58mm toy that you accumulate will not fit.
It is spring lever machine. The lever can kick. So read the manual.
You cannot take the portafilter out while the lever is not done or you will get the “Sneeze”. You dot not want that.

in conclusion, I LOVE the ACS. Is produce amazing espresso. I doubt that I will ever buy E61 group head again. The ACS Evo Leva community here is amazing. I alway amaze by how fast and knowledgeable of people in Evo Leva group. I rarely contact customer service because either the answer is already in the forum or someone will answer it for you in couples of hours.

That is my opinion. I hope that help.😀

CoyoteOldMan

MackOT You cannot take the portafilter out while the lever is not done or you will get the “Sneeze”. You dot not want that.

You definitely do not want portafilter sneeze with a lever… but there is a way to eliminate or at least much decrease it: push down on the lever until the pressure gauge reads 0, then very carefully open the portafilter (wrapping a big towel around is still a sensible thing to do!).

chlorox

MackOT

The La San Marco grouphead, double springs and the 54mm slimmer but deeper portafilter really do make a massive difference, don’t they? I have been using my Izzo Pompei that has the same grouphead design for more than a decade and enjoying the coffee it gives me without any issues whatsoever.

chlorox

Eiffel

Just for claritys sake, the nurri also has a pressure gauge for the group head just like the acs vesuvius evo, only that it is mounted on the body of the machine rather than perched on tbe grouphead itself.

chlorox

CoyoteOldMan

I don’t really move fast enough in my coffee preparation to actually experience coffee sneeze because i am usually not in a hurry to make the second shot. If i am making a latte, by the time I finish steaming the milk, the pressure has already stabilised in the grouphead and the puck is dry.

sacguy71

Della Corte Mina looks awesome since can do all sorts of shots. But over 8k way expensive. So looking at some spring levers but no rush. Had response from ACS on the Vesuvius Evo Leva and Nurri as well as Salvatore. Will see how budget looks end of year. Got my beloved Rocket Cellini back all fixed up so can make lattes again.

chlorox

sacguy71

For pump machines, another interesting one that is coming out is the la san marco You but its liable to be at the same price range or more than the mina…

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