Hi All I searched this Forum for “water recipe” and did not have significant success. Searching for “water” has many (many) hits, but they cover a wide variety of topics. So at the risk of being repetitive, may I ask: What specific water recipe or recipes do you use for your espresso coffee? If more than one, which recipe in which situation? For each recipe may I ask: What specific compounds do you use (how many mg of x in 1 litre of RO water)? When do you use this recipe? (for which beans or roasts)? What is its impact on taste? Please be specific. What is its impact on extraction yield? What is its impact on scaling? On corrosion? PS Any particular suggestions for water recipes that work well for decaf?

What's 10% RO? Most people will use one recipe. It's not easy to change water in espresso machines with brew boilers, people who use an HX or something that doesn't have boilers like the flare may do it easily.

@"Rob1"#p28523 Thanks Rob1. Good point. By 10% RO I meant RO water at 10% TDS. In other words, water that is almost as pure as distilled water. Anyway I edited that out, to just refer to RO water. And so …. what’s your latest water recipe preference?

Changes in water chemistry have no effect on extraction yield, only flavour and scaling/corrosion potential. If the coffee has muted acidity drop the alkalinity, if it is overly bright, try more alkalinity (assuming nominal extraction & no other obvious faults.) Honesty, I would finalise your water then spend much more time & effort on the beans, grind & ratio, (Unless of course you are starting a business remineralising water for espresso?)

@"MWJB"#p28546 Thanks for the good comments and suggestions, MWJB. If you do not mind sharing, what water base and additives recipe do you use ? What do you like about it? As an FYI, I read (in Barista Hustle) that (all other factors being equal), increases in magnesium cause increased extraction. I’ll post the BH quote in a moment.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28559 Correction: Increases in water hardness produce increases in extraction. A couple of recipes that I saw on BH targeted somewhat greater hardness, for use in espresso.

_“Pretty Hard Water: 35.1 g buffer 126.1 g magnesium concentrate 838.9 g distilled/ultrapure water This recipe begins the ascent in water ‘hardness’, probably better suited to espresso. It is also a good choice of water for filter coffee recipes that require a very short contact time. This is starting to grab a lot out from the coffee, so brew recipes would need need to either slow down or speed up the brew time, via grind adjustments, and shorten or increase your beverage weight. Dependent on the roast, somewhere along those two spectra you’ll find something tasty.”_ And this: _Hard AF Water 45.2 g buffer 176.8 g magnesium concentrate 778.0 g distilled/ultrapure water This recipe pushes the mineral level to a point where_ you’re basically cranking the amp up to 11. Your brew parameters from the earlier water recipes would need to change a lot here.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28562 We thought 2 days ago, if the memory serves right, you will not be using pure RO and instead get ZeroWater and re-mineralise? Has there been a change in thinking? https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1105-accurate-water-testing-kits/52 Please get a view of the GH and KH of your pure RO first. You can then top up with bicarbonate and go from there. I would try reading some of the water threads posted on this forum.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28559 Don't bother posting the BH info on hardness & EY, it is wrong. I like coffee, I like the coffee to drive the flavour of the drink. I focus on this, whilst using water within the recommendations for good boiler water. At the moment I use a BWT jug because in one pass I get suitable water, with no remineralisation. Previously, I remineralised by mixing 0TDS water with tap water.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28539 As MWJB has said already, hardness has no effect on extraction. There's no evidence that water with a bit of calcium or magnesium extract more from coffee than distilled water. Blind taste tests are wildly inconsistent too, with the results of some showing coffee made with distilled water tasting best, calcium muddling flavours but tasting creamy, others showing calcium being the best and fruity, others showing magnesium being sweetest and most fruity and others still saying magnesium makes coffee too bright…you get the idea. In terms of EY there's no notable difference and tests using gas chromatography show no significant difference. The biggest factor affecting flavour is alkalinity. Hardness will affect how the water tastes. People report calcium gives water a creamier mouth feel, in my experience magnesium imparts a little sweetness. This is compared to distilled with bicarbonate only added. My espresso with magnesium and bicarb is a little sweeter than just bicarb but having not done side by side tests I cannot say for sure. I just use tap water to brew immersion or syphon as it is fairly ideal, so no comparisons outside of espresso either. I don't have my recipe to hand but I use Magnesium hydroxide in carbonated water to get a concentrate of Magnesium bicarbonate, and another concentrate that will give me Sodium Bicarb to get 10mg/l Sodium. The final brew water has about 45mg/l alkalinity from bicarb and 25mg/l Magnesium as CaCO3. Using water with about 50mg/l alkalinity is a good bet and will help prevent corrosion. Adding hardness means you will get scale in a service boiler eventually without some kind of flushing routines. You might want to get an alkalinity and hardness that doesn't scale in the brew boiler (hard to descale) but be happy with descaling the service boiler, or you might want to avoid any maintenance in which case just use bicarb.

@"LMSC"#p28565 Thanks LMSC. I just bought a ZeroWater filter, just delivered today, and will soon start using it. I just read that it reduces TDS by 99.6%, so the TDS of the end result will depend upon the TDS of your tap water. So probably more like 1% TDS. Will then remineralize it, using an appropriate water recipe.

What Espresso Water Recipes Do You Prefer, When?

Rob1

Putting the concentrate in the fridge will help it along. Sounds like you should have just made a 1 litre batch of the concentrate with the sodastream. Maybe consider buying smaller bottles for future use if compatible…as above add CO2 until there’s no residue and the water is clear. It’ll be difficult to avoid having excess CO2 but it will leave the water, and as it’s a concentrate I’m not worried about the acidity carrying over significantly into the remineralised water. When the CO2 is gone alkalinity will be equal to the hardness.

JHCCoffee

CoyoteOldMan Rob1 @MediumRoastSteam @DavecUK

I know we’ve been through this before, so my apologies for being forgetful.

I’m going to give the magnesium hydroxide and sodium bicarbonate recipe a try. If I don’t detect a significant improvement in taste, I’ll go back to the sodium bicarbonate recipe.

But while I try this magnesium hydroxide recipe, or if I like it so much that I want to use it permanently, I want to completely mitigate any potential scaling or pitting risks. Fyi, I run the Lelit Elizabeth boiler at 135C. I pour 14 cappuccino shots a week (really do need to get out of that rut and try something different).

Every day I run about 70ml of water through the hot water wand, which I understand draws water from the service boiler. I recall reading that Dave said it is a good thing to do.

Once every 2 weeks, I turn the pre-infusion off and run the hot water until it stops. I understand from DaveC’s maintenance bible that this fully flushes the service boiler. I also run about 200 ml of water through the group head (though I sometimes forget to do that). No worries there, as I also fully clean the machine using a cleaning tablet and blind basket, and then rinse again using the blind basket, so I am betting that I am running the 200 ml through the machine just doing that. But I will try to make that 200 ml group head flush a habit.

A couple of questions:

I assume the concern is the risk of buildup of magnesium carbonate in the service boiler water. Will the flushing procedure (running the hot water wand until it stops) and also running 200 ml through the grouphead eliminate the increased scaling and pitting risk, compared to RO water with sodium bicarbonate?
Mr.Shulman, in his long espresso bible cited earlier in this thread, advocates flushing with RO water, to further dilute any mineralization that may have to the service boiler water. The same can be done for the brew boiler. However, as I will be brewing with the magnesium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate water, the RO water that I would be using for flushing will be replaced by the magnesium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate water, so as Rob1 observed, why bother. I guess that the only reason to bother with an RO water flush (using the hot water wand and then the grouphead) is that this RO water will “carry away” any mineralization that may build up in the service and brew boiler water. Not sure whether this idea (of an RO water flush) makes any sense. Does it?
I would then complete this flushing procedure every 2 weeks, but would do it every week if that is better. So once every week vs two? Thoughts?
The Lelit manual recommends a “descaling of the hydraulic circuit of the machine every year, by a specialized technician”. What would they do that is different than what I would do?
Anything and everything that I have read on this forum says to avoid descaling, right?

So, I will have to like this water recipe ALOT to go through all of the above once a week. And I will only do that if the result would be (through one a week flushing, vs once every 2 weeks currently) no significant increase in scaling and pitting risk, compared to my current RO water with sodium bicarbonate recipe.

Now … back to enjoying good coffee.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee Once every 2 weeks, I turn the pre-infusion off and run the hot water until it stops. I understand from DaveC’s maintenance bible that this fully flushes the service boiler

What do you mean by turning the pre-infusion off?

CoyoteOldMan

JHCCoffee Will the flushing procedure (running the hot water wand until it stops) and also running 200 ml through the grouphead eliminate the increased scaling and pitting risk, compared to RO water with sodium bicarbonate?

No, it won’t eliminate it, though it will decrease it (and therefore decrease the ‘needed’ frequency of descaling).

JHCCoffee RO water will “carry away” any mineralization that may build up in the service and brew boiler water. Not sure whether this idea (of an RO water flush) makes any sense. Does it?

Magnesium carbonate is not really soluble in water, so any deposit of MgCO₃ that has already formed will stay. What the rinsing may do is to carry away any loose particles that are on the surface of any scale deposit. If you are only using bicarbonates in the water, I don’t see any reason to flush with RO water, though if you were to fill the service/steam boiler with pure RO water regularly and then use it for steaming, it would further delay the need for any descaling.

JHCCoffee So once every week vs two? Thoughts?

If you use Rob’s spreadsheet, it will give you a pretty good idea of the frequency of flushing/descaling (on the ‘Calculations’ tab).

JHCCoffee What would they do that is different than what I would do?

They would use an acid solution (probably citric acid) to dissolve any scale that has formed. What you are doing/planning is not so much de-scaling as trying to decrease the speed of scaling (possibly down to zero). Prevention rather than cure, so to speak.

JHCCoffee Anything and everything that I have read on this forum says to avoid descaling, right?

I don’t know what you have read on this forum - I haven’t read all of it myself 😉; I would say that descaling is not ideal as it seldom works perfectly and it doesn’t help with corrosion. Personally, I think descaling is also a faff, and I’m quite happy using a potassium bicarb-only formula, having tried with MgSO₄ and found that the taste difference (even if perceptible) is not enough in my opinion to warrant the faff.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam What do you mean by turning the pre-infusion off?

DaveC’s bible says, for safety, to do the flush using Button 1, with no pre-infusion. So I set my pre-infusion for that button at 0 seconds, if that is the right thing to do? In the advanced settings I have bloom pre-infusion on, at I think 5 seconds, but if I set Button 1 to 0 seconds on the main menu (not the advanced) I should have no pre-infusion, if I am right about that?

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - you are getting confused between draining the service boiler via hot water tap and backflushing. I’d advise you to re-read and re-watch the bible, chapter and verse. 😉

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee In the advanced settings I have bloom pre-infusion on

If by that you mean EV=0, I’m not sure if the valve therefore will be open and allow water from the steam boiler to enter and mix in the brew boiler, where the water is always drawn from. It might do, but I never experimented to check that. If the EV doesn’t open, then you’ll be always drawing water from the brew boiler.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam you are getting confused between draining the service boiler via hot water tap and backflushing.

You are quite right! Back flushing doesn’t drain the service boiler. But I presume that it does remove some water from the brew boiler. I only meant to say that while DaveC recommends running 200 ml through the group head as a further preventive maintenance measure, I haven’t been doing that every week, as I should. But I do backlush atleast once a week, which is a good start.

No harm in rereading that maintenance bible though, when I have a spare moment.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - it’s not necessary to drain the steam boiler every two weeks though. Maybe every 2 months. 👍

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam it’s not necessary to drain the steam boiler every two weeks though. Maybe every 2 months. 👍

Quite right! Just that Rob1 has me a tad nervous about his Magnesium Carbonate - Sodium Bicarbonate water recipe. So if I end up really liking it, I may drain the steam boiler more frequently. If I stay with my current RO water- sodium bicarbonate recipe, once every month or even two is probably fine.

Ixorya

Hello guys,

I’ve been using a simple recipe of baking soda and epsom salt in RO water to create a concentrate.

It was working well at first but I realise the concentrate will start to crystalise after a week or 2. I read this post and saw that CO2 was used (I assume to stop the crystalising..?). I do have a soda machine, but I am unsure how much to use in order to stop the crystalising from happening. Should I add CO2 before I add the baking soda and epsom salt? Or after?

Is there another recipe that doesn’t crystalise at all? Perhaps just using baking soda? If so, how much should I be using to form the concentrate?

I am more concerned with machine lifespan over taste. 😅

This is the recipe I followed:

Rob1

Ixorya The reason your mix crystalises is because you mix bicarbonate and magnesium hardness together in high concentrations. You’re seeing magnesium carbonate forming. The recipe detailed in the video is 8.6 Sodium Bicarb and 25g Epsom Salt in 500ml of water: 2ml of the concentrate in 500ml water. I don’t see anywhere he uses CO2 in the water but I didn’t watch all the way through. It doesn’t make sense to use CO2 in the recipe as the ingredients are water soluble without it. This recipe gives just about:

19.4mg/l Magnesium
76.8mg/l Sulfate
23mg/l Sodium
61mg/l Bicarbonate

50mg/l Alkalinity and 80 mg/l Hardness

The water will be causing scale build-up in the form of magnesium carbonate even at the lower end of espresso machine temps (e.g 105c for a brew boiler) and significantly more in a service boiler. If you want to keep using it you’ll need to descale. You can make two separate concentrates to prevent crystallisation and add 2ml of each to 498ml water. On that note you could also significantly decrease the concentration of the concentrate and add a larger quantity to the water e.g 20ml to 482ml…..or whatever you want. Use the calculator in my signature to figure out what you need to add (you can define how much concentrate you want to make and how much of that to add to any amount of distilled water)….but I think you’ll always see sediment at some point when making one concentrate of two things that will naturally form sediment.

If you’re happy with the recipe as it is and would just like to make a concentrate with bicarbonate then you don’t need to bother with anything, just stop adding magnesium sulfate and you’ll remineralise the water to 50mg/l alkalinity.

Ixorya

Rob1

Oh dear, the reason why I am mixing is to avoid scale buildup. @.@

I am very new to this, are there any simple and foolproof recipes to follow with minimal scale buildup?

I just found https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-redux/ and intended to try the recipes from there since the Epsom salt concentration are significantly lesser.

Rob1

Ixorya the recipes there use less epsom salt but also more concentrate. The video says the recipe he used cane from barista hustle so it looks like he has taken one of their recipes and made a more concentrated form so he only has to add 2ml to 500ml. As I said, if you want to avoid scale then just stop using the epsom salt and see if you like the bicarbonate only recipe.

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