How Do You Stop Your Shots - Brew Ratio, Time, Blonding?

JHCCoffee

Hi All

Just wondering how you decide when to stop your shots.

I have been following brew ratio, which I then adjust based upon taste. I also watch time to some degree, trying to avoid running too short in time (say less than 20 seconds) or too long (say more than 40 seconds). I do pay attention to the stream/flow, particularly if the shot takes too long to show on the shower screen and the stream is thin, resulting in a long timeframe.

I have not at all watched the colour of the stream. Should I?

I have seen some posts (in various places) suggesting that one gets greater extraction and taste by grinding as fine as the machine will allow, without stopping. Any merit in that? It does not make sense to me.

Thoughts?

hornbyben

Always ratio (ie weight) for me. I monitor the time and use that to adjust the grind size for next time. Then I adjust from there based on taste

LMSC

JHCCoffee I don’t think there are any rules! The general expectation is 30-35s. I only time my shot when a fresh bag is opened. As we have the Evo at home, I don’t cut the shot by weight, but by bar pressures as they consistently gives me 1.1:5 to 1 to 1:2.5. I prefer 1:2 to 1-2.5 irrespective of the roast. You can tell if the shot is faster or slower. I would look to tweak if less than 20s or exceeds 45s.

I would say go by taste.

CoyoteOldMan

Pretty much the same as LMSC - including preferences for the ratio, although I’m curious about re-trying some specific (and very dark) coffees with a much shorter ratio. I’d still use pressure to do so, as it’s very reliable and far less of a faff for my setup than using scales.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee I have seen some posts (in various places) suggesting that one gets greater extraction and taste by grinding as fine as the machine will allow, without stopping. Any merit in that? It does not make sense to me.

I don’t understand this. How can determine “as fine as the machine will allow”? If “the machine” in this case is the grinder, then my machine will not produce any coffee. If “the machine” here is the coffee machine, then that statement makes no sense to me, what so ever - as in, you can grind as fine as you can, and let the machine just drip coffee. You might end up with a 2 minute shot, or maybe a 3 minute shot, but surely that’s hardly ideal. So yeah… I don’t get it :-)

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam If “the machine” in this case is the grinder, then my machine will not produce any coffee

Kafatek has a wonderful new machine. Its called the Monolith Espresso. It automatically grinds to your specifications, doses and tamps the portafilter and pours the perfect shot. 😁

I don’t understand this. How can determine “as fine as the machine will allow”? If “the machine” in this case is the grinder, then my machine will not produce any coffee. If “the machine” here is the coffee machine, then that statement makes no sense to me, what so ever - as in, you can grind as fine as you can, and let the machine just drip coffee. You might end up with a 2 minute shot, or maybe a 3 minute shot, but surely that’s hardly ideal. So yeah… I don’t get it.

I don’t get it either. However I’ve seen numerous posts (in various places) about folks running slow flow, long shots to get better extraction and presumably taste. I think those shots will just be over extracted. However I just put it out there for comment.

Welcome your response on how you stop your shots. Its kind of a newbie question, but I’ve seen various approaches to it. Some leading baristas insist that that only way is to stop a shot after it blonds. Others say ignore that and focus on brew ratio. Still others say target 30 seconds, while other pundits say time is not as important. So I put it out there for discussion, if anyone is interested.

Rob1

Ratio and grind adjustments. Time isn’t a factor I consider.

JHCCoffee

Rob1 Ratio and grind adjustments. Time isn’t a factor I consider

Got it! However is there a minimum time that you’d say, this shot is running too fast? Or a maximum that its just to slow? For example, as long as the shot is between say 25 and 45 seconds, should we just ignore the time factor? Thoughts?

What about watching for blonding? Is that now passe?

Or maybe shots that blonde with 25 to 45 seconds have a better chance of being decent? Or not?

Rob1

Blonding isn’t relevant and will change from lighter or darker roasts. No, I don’t really take time into consideration at all. Which is to say, I don’t taste a shot and think it’s good and then tell myself it’ll be better if I get it closer to 25 seconds. Shot time is just a product of ratio and grind size. I’ve had plenty of coffee dialled in for over 50 seconds, even over a minute. Also had a few good that ran closer to 20 seconds but not many.

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee Welcome your response on how you stop your shots

By ratio. I.e.: I dose 18g, and I stop at 36g, or 37g, or 40g, depending how good my reflexes are first thing in the morning! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 - to add to that, my scale is laggy! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

JHCCoffee about folks running slow flow, long shots to get better extraction and presumably taste. I think those shots will just be over extracted.

If your machine has flow control, no harm in trying it out. It wouldn’t be over extracted either, as you are pushing less water through the puck compared to a steady pressure/steady flow machine. He Elizabeth has no flow control so not much I can do on that department.

Cuprajake

It’s all averages which are quite old. So you cant really use them for every bean.

It’s a bit like the BMI it doesn’t work for everyone

Then you throw things in like slayer shots

Where people are pulling 60second shots on machines with lacking temp stability 🤷

You have to be driven off taste but also your equipment,

When I had the l1 for me it made great ristretto shots, the Bianca was very good all round, the leva brings even more variables to the table.

With coffee there’s just too many factors in play to be bang on all the time, anyone who tells you different is probably on YouTube selling 😂

PortafilterProcrastinator

Rob1 So you go purely on taste - where the ‘sweet spot’ is between bitter and sour? This seems entirely sensible, obviously.

I’ve been feeling quite lost with it all recently too be honest and was going to post about crema colour following a comment in a YT video about this indicating level of extraction. But then I saw this thread.

Keeping firmly in mind ‘if it tastes good nothing else matters’ is surprisingly difficult at times.

How bitter is bitter? How sour is sour? As many answers for as many people as you ask.

Cuprajake

Don’t go off crema, it’s a by product of the bean, as they age or roast type crema will change.

Be driven purely on what tastes good

CoyoteOldMan

PortafilterProcrastinator How bitter is bitter? How sour is sour? As many answers for as many people as you ask.

And how many times you ask them. Sometimes I like bitter, sometimes I don’t as much - although objectively it’s the same coffee, ground on the same grinder, and brewed on the same machine, often within the same day.

Rob1

JHCCoffee I don’t get it either. However I’ve seen numerous posts (in various places) about folks running slow flow, long shots to get better extraction and presumably taste. I think those shots will just be over extracted. However I just put it out there for comment.

Slow flow can be because of grind but also flow profiling machines will allow you to slow down without needing the puck to be offering so much resistance. A very slow flowing shot caused by a fine grind won’t necessarily lead to a high EY. Extraction drops the finer you grind beyond a point. Higher flow rates extracting more than slower flow rates too, so a low flow, long shot won’t necessarily be over-extracted especially if that “long” is something like a 3:1 ratio. That doesn’t mean it will be good though. It might be horribly bitter without being over-extracted.

When I open a new bag I look at the tasting notes and smell it, then decide what ratio I’m going to aim for. Origin and density give me a very good idea of how fine I’ll need to grind. If I smell smoky, burned, ashy bitter notes I grind coarser. I’ll experiment with a faster flow and longer ratio just to see if the expected bitter/burned/ashy notes come through but will likely settle on stopping the shot at a lower ratio e.g 2:1 or less and use flow control to slow the shot down. Floral or fruity notes, grind finer and try to push extraction up so I’ll use a higher ratio too e.g 2.5-3:1. If I’m grinding too fine and get sediment in the cup, I’ll loosen the grind and maybe pull the shot even longer if necessary (though usually, it’s not). I’ve had a lot of clean, sweet, balanced and tasty shots in the lungo range in this way. At the extreme, I’ve used an 18g dose to get 90-100g in 60 seconds, more commonly 60g-75g in 45-50 seconds. This is with flow profiling and a 30 second bloom phase for the extreme example and just with flow profiling for the latter examples. Generally, I work with my ingredients and equipment instead of against it; I don’t try to force a bean to be good at any specific ratio and I don’t try to grind finer and finer to the point I’m getting too much sediment and the cup is getting muddy.

Ernie1

Ratio for me too. On the Bianca 19/38, on the LM I’m finding 18/36 is nice for the basket size.

I let taste lead but I tend to keep a loose eye on my watch and find that anything below about 20 seconds or more than 40 is likely to be undrinkable.

Most coffee I enjoy seems to average around 28-32 seconds.

wilburpan

Rob1 Shot time is just a product of ratio and grind size.

Quick question — this is true only if the pressure is kept constant, correct?

Rob1

It’s an odd question. Pressure tailing off through a shot can is caused by grind and ratio as the puck erodes. Keeping pressure constant might mean increasing the flow rate assuming the puck will be capable of offering resistance. If you have a true pressure profiling machine shot time is still determined by grind and ratio. If you decide to stop flow (let pressure drop) and then start flow again, sure you’re going to alter the shot time but adjusting pressure or flow itself can’t get you to your ratio faster, only slower. With a true pressure profiling machine, you might want to set the shot to run at 9bar but find it’s not possible because the grind is too coarse. So in short, altering pressure means altering flow, which means altering shot time…..but I’m not sure what use it is to think of it like this. The point is still the same: that shot time will not define a good or bad shot.

JHCCoffee

Rob1

Thanks Rob1! I appreciate the time you’ve taken to share your approach.

wilburpan

Rob1 Just to clarify, by “the pressure is kept constant”, I meant keeping whatever was going on with the pressure the same between grind size and ratio combinations, not keeping the pressure constant across the extraction. The idea being that if the resulting shot time depends on just those two factors, the pressure conditions, whatever they are, have to be the same both times.

Or to put it another way, if you have a certain shot time with a given ratio and grind size, and you change the grind size, you can get back to the same shot time by adjusting the pressure conditions. Maybe I’m wrong about that.

Sorry for the confusion.