Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam here you go. Ignore the length of the shot I’m on a Kenyan light so very fine grind and long pre infusion.

Inspector

Just an update on this, I reached out Bella Barista today to ask if they can send me new OPV and their reply was they have been discussing this with Lelit and they will send out one as soon as Lelit sends them updated OPV’s, but this might take several weeks from now.

My routine now is put a blind basket in the morning before first coffee, run machine for 20seconds to drop pressure to 9.5bars then I pull my first and second shots. It has been quite consistent this way so far :)

europa

Inspector

BB insisted i send my machine back to them. They replaced the valve pretty quickly to be fair, but it was a right pain to have to send it back!

Inspector

europa

I have just seen this msg, yea for me its pita as i binned all the packaging the other day and i would be afraid if it gets damaged in transport anyway. I am sure if they send me the part i can install it myself with a bit of swearing lol

europa

Inspector

I didn’t have the original packaging either. I literally spent hours packaging it up for transportation! But i had no choice as LELIT advised BB to inspect the machine.

I’m surprised BB told you they’re discussing it with LELIT. In my case, they didn’t admit to talking to LELIT or to ever having heard about this issue before! They said it’s their responsibility to investigate any issues.

After the replacement, I spoke to the technician who did the work - a friendly chap called Aaron. He said its debatable whether this is really a fault as it’s quite common for the pressure to spike on the first run after a while. In fact his advice was to always run some water thru the group before pulling the first shot (to release any residual pressure). Only time will tell whether he’s right.

MediumRoastSteam

europa it’s quite common for the pressure to spike on the first run after a while. In fact his advice was to always run some water thru the group before pulling the first shot (to release any residual pressure).

In my simple mind, this makes no sense. The group vents when not brewing, therefore always at atmospheric pressure. When brewing, the three way solenoid closes. When the shot finishes, it opens and you see water discharged to the drip tray.

The solenoid only opens when pressure is over 9-10 bar. Flushing water through the group will not make a difference in that regard, as far as I understand.

dmau9600

JahLaza when you installed the new valve, does the new hexagonal seat shape remove the play inside the housing that the original valve had?

I received a new valve, but it’s the same style as the old one, the valve seat rattles around inside the housing and the indent on the seat is way off center again.

JahLaza

The new cap won’t fit correctly in the old valve housing, it’s a smaller diameter to the original so just replace the whole valve, it’s easy. I applied a thin coat of molycote 111 around the cap as advised by Dave here, applied some ptfe tape to the threads of the valve and installed, and it worked great

dmau9600

JahLaza sorry, what I was asking is if the new valve, with the new seat and housing, removes the play from the seat within the housing.

In the old valve, the seat fits very loosely inside the housing, which I suspect contributes to the pressure spike issue. I’m curious if the new valve design removes the play?

JahLaza

dmau9600 oh, ok yes it fixes the issue, mine has a nice steady ramp up to the pressure set point since changing it. Regarding how tight a fit, well, I can’t remember now but it’s doing what it’s meant to!

ken1

Been weighing up buying either the Elizabeth or the Silvia Pro X. Do you guys think new Elizabeth machines will have this problem sorted? I really don’t want to dig inside my machine if I can help it.

DavecUK

ken1 Yes, I absolutely do think Lelit will have included the revised expansion valve in new machines.

europa

Here is the email from LELIT. DavecUK

Read from bottom:

Da: NicoleAntimir <[care@lelit.com](mailto:care@lelit.com)>
Inviato: mercoledì 6 aprile 2022 09:59
A: Support <[support@bellabarista.co.uk](mailto:support@bellabarista.co.uk)>; Claudette Porter <*********>; Scarlet <************>
Cc: ExportSalesDpt <****>; JuditHorvath <********>
Oggetto: RE: Elizabeth OPV Valve

Hi Martin,

from what we know the case is related to the fact that the pressure spikes on the first shot and it’s slightly reduced on the 2^nd shot. We are keeping an eye on this but we did not identify a batch of defective valves, so I really don’t know where this comment is coming from.

Anyway, we will send you the requested pieces so you can have these in stock for your clients and I’ll be looking forward to hearing from you regarding the serial numbers.

Part # MC931 ADJUSTABLE OVERPRESSURE VALVE

10 pcs FOC

Thank you!

Best regards,

Nicole Antimir

CARE Department | LELIT - Gemme Italian Producers Srl - Italy

P. +39 030 2141199 | M. +39 347 7857718 | W. www.lelit.com

LELIT - MADE FOR PERFORMANCE

From: Support <[support@bellabarista.co.uk](mailto:support@bellabarista.co.uk)>
Sent: martedì 5 aprile 2022 16:27
To: NicoleAntimir <[care@lelit.com](mailto:care@lelit.com)>; Claudette Porter ; Scarlet
Subject: FW: Elizabeth OPV Valve

Hi Nicole

We keep getting this comment and apparently Lelit know they have an issue with OPV in Elizabeth.

Please can you supply x 10 of the updated OPV asap.

We will of course provide serial numbers once we have replaced in customers machines.

ken1

That’s good to hear. I really like the feature set on the Lelit. Saw one for 899 Euro and I’m very tempted. How do these machines do in shipping? I’d need to get it shipped from the EU to New Zealand.

DavecUK

ken1 Elizabeth is probably one of the machines least likely to be damaged during shipping. Just make sure the manufacture date on the rating plate is within the last few months and it shoul have the revised expansion valve. Or ask the retailer.

europa

MediumRoastSteam

Yes, i find it a little hard to believe that such behaviour is typical and to be expected.

In fact, I’m starting to doubt that the issue has even been fixed on my machine. Reason is, when i got the machine back, the valve appeared to have been set at about 10 bar; but, over the past week of usage since the valve was replaced, i got the feeling the pressure was creeping up again.

So, yesterday, i did a test with a blind basket. First pull: ca. 11.25 bar. Second and third: ca. 10.25 bar. So a 1 bar overshoot on the first pull!

I then adjusted the valve to about 9.75 bar - the nut took quite a lot of turning to get it there - and will monitor things over the next week or so. First shot today was at that same pressure (so no spike). The inconsistent behaviour is puzzling!

drdre89

europa and you’ve got the new valve on your machine?

dmau9600

europa

FYI, even though I am still pushing my distributor for a new valve, I was able to fix the issue on my machine, and it has been consistent without spikes for months now. I’m copying my earlier response below for anyone else struggling to get a new working valve.

************

While waiting months for a replacement OPV, I found a fix that has been working very consistently for a few [months] now.

The indent from the spring on the green rubber valve seat in my machine was very off-center, meaning the spring was crooked when installed and not applying even pressure, likely causing the metal part of the seat to rub and catch on the inside of the housing. Other have suspected this to be a root cause as well.

So, I pulled the valve seat out, and using a sharp utility razor, I shaved the top of the valve seat off to create a new even surface. Basically reset the install. I was careful to reinstall and hopefully keep the spring better aligned.

My machine has been running very consistently since doing this. No more spikes and the pressure hasn’t starting creeping up again. For anyone with an uneven valve seat indentation, I would now recommend going straight to this solution along with a good lube while you’re at it.

europa

drdre89

Ive got A new valve. Exactly which one i do not know (as it fitted by the retailer (BB) under warranty). I plan to ask them next week.

LiquidAir

The pressure in my 2 week old Elizabeth has been consistent so far; the OPV was at 10 bar with a blank basket out of the box. I ended up lowering it to about 9.5 bar with a blank basket to get 9 bar while pulling real shots.

dmau9600

europa my retailer shipped me a replacement valve, but it unfortunately was not the new style. I’m still working with them to source the new valve, because this replacement valve is identical to my current valve and I do not see how it will fix anything.

From what we’ve gathered in this thread:

Old style = round valve seat, often with an off-center indent on the green rubber part. Many people have no problems, some people do

New style = hexagonal(ish) shape valve seat, most seem to report issues resolved

europa

dmau9600

Just got off the phone with my retailer - BB. They said that there is no new shape valve -and that LELIT has confirmed this. They also said they would share with me a letter from LELIT addressing this issue (which i will post on here when i get it). Apparently, LELIT does not consider this pressure behaviour to be a warranty issue. The valves are manufactured by different companies and are not necessarily all of the same quality. Also, the OPV is not considered a precision instrument; therefore, variations in pressure are to be expected. They recommend purging some water thru the group head prior to pulling the first shot.

Personally, i would expect more from LELIT considering the cost of these machines.

MediumRoastSteam

europa Personally, i would expect more from LELIT considering the cost of these machines.

Wondering how much of this behaviour is influenced by the fact they’ve been taken over by The Breville Group.

drdre89

europa Apparently, LELIT does not consider this pressure behaviour to be a warranty issue. The valves are manufactured by different companies and are not necessarily all of the same quality. Also, the OPV is not considered a precision instrument; therefore, variations in pressure are to be expected.

Sheesh … I’m glad I got a refund on my Elizabeth now. Good luck 🤞👍

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