Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

DavecUK

Having seen the second fixes set of photos, I can clearly see the valve pad is brass. Now the bad news ish….I am also of the mind that the pad should be lubricated as well as the sides of the pad holder and possibly a thin smear in the area of the bore where it moves.. We are talking a thin smear on the pad. In all probability the cleaning alone cures “pad stick”…but lubricateion is going to reduce the possibility of return, if “pad stick” is a thing?

This will help prevent any build up of deposits and also help ensure any possibility of “pad stick”, doesn’t allow the pad to lift unevenly then try and jam…this is a guess, but on reflection I would do this. I know you guys still need to get some Molykote III, so when you do, you can do the job with that…it has hugely better washout resistance.

Then the best water you can with the lowest amount of dry residue and something that won’t leave deposits, or varnishes on the valve. The valve is actually of good quality, so it’s odd that this can happen…but clearly with good water it doesn’t seem to be an issue @MediumRoastSteam.

My current view is the fix will last a very long time …years and the more often the valve opens and closes as it does in daily use, the more it’s going to move freely anyway..

Pygmalion

Thanks for the updated advice, @DavecUK. I will indeed disassemble again and lubricate more fully, as you suggest. When you say “a thin smear in the area of the bore where it moves”, are you talking about the inside of the valve body? Just want to make sure.

Also, I think that in order to lubricate the inside of the body, I might need to completely remove the valve. Should I expect the threads to be stuck on with some kind of loctite that I might need to contend with, or will standard hand tools and procedures suffice to remove the valve? Also, upon re-installing, should I use any such product, teflon tape, etc?

Finally, I just want to clarify that I think I am already using very high quality water in the machine, which is simply distilled water with trace minerals added back in according to the 70/30 water recipe. Is it your opinion that this recipe is not good? If the recipe is alright, then this issue can still crop up even if the water is good.

DavecUK

Pygmalion very, very, thin smear of Molykote, hardly any as you don’t want lumps of grease entering the pump. The idea is to get it clean, non stiky and scale free. By the bore I means dry it throroughtly inside and with a finger or a cotton bud, just a thin thin smear around the bottom area where the pad thing moves…it only moves 5 mm. Do not remove it from the machine.

When using Molykote, everything must be bone dry….don’t do the pring or high up in the bore, just the o ring at the top where the plunger assembly moves in and out, as that o ring seals from leaks.

P.S. really really thin thin coat (did I already mention this)

Ando

Is this the bit I’m interested in? Detach the plastic tube then unscrew? Just wanting to double check before I get started later on.

And that bit I’m screwing is the bit that adjusts the pressure?

Thanks in advance

DavecUK

Ando Yup that’s correct….don’t get it wrong, or you might be screwed. 😉

Ando

Think I’m sorted - all seemed fine with blind basket but had to pause as the plastic tube flew off the OPV as @MediumRoastSteam warned.

So cable ties tomorrow and should be fine.

I have photos if required but doubt it will add anything - similar to others there was white stuff on spring and small part with green pad on it. That bit had clear corrosion on it with pinky bits exposed once white stuff off.

Is water def the culprit here?

Thanks very much for all the help - really appreciate it! I should add - having extremely large hands did not make this easy! Haha!

MediumRoastSteam

Ando plastic tube flew off the OPV

Silicone sir, silicone! 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍👍

DavecUK

Ando The very thin layer of Molykote will significantly reduce future deposits.

JahLaza

@DavecUK my molykote should arrive in about 2 weeks I’ll redo then. Just while it’s hot here, can you please confirm where I should apply the molykote? O- ring, yes, sides of pad holder (I’m guessing the metal circumference of the brass pad holder which glides over and back inside the housing)- yes, the area of the valve housing where the pad/piston head will move-yes fine. You said above to apply it to the pad also, what did you mean? Apologies if it’s obvious but I just wanted to be crystal clear as don’t want to be doing it too often. I’ve noted it’s a THIN LAYER!

DavecUK

JahLaza The sealing pad so deposits won’t form and it can’t stick..

Very thin layer…on totally dry components.

Pygmalion

Hi, all. I wanted to give a quick update on this for those interested. I performed the extended lubrication, including pad (very thin layer) as advised, with Molykote. All seemed well right at first, but the behavior has now returned, with initial pressure spikes even higher than before.

Anyway, I’m in contact with my retailer, and they have assured me they’ll get it sorted.

I hope the fix continues to work for others, and I’ll keep monitoring this thread to see if anything more develops.

Ando

Pygmalion Not good news. Where did you buy it from? Sounds like a promising response from them.

What water do you use with machine? Someone mentioned Osmio, was that yourself?

Pygmalion

Hi, @Ando. I bought from Clive Coffee, in the States. Seems they will provide full support.

I use 70/30 water, which is just distilled water that you add a few trace minerals to at home; recipes can be found on the web. Given that this is a very soft and controlled water, I can’t see how that could be the problem.

Anyway, I suppose this is a minor issue, given that the machine still works and the coffee is good. But since it is so new (and pretty pricey), I’d like it to still function fully as intended.

Hope your fix holds up.

drdre89

I have the same issue. Brand new Lelit Elizabeth V3 … Was working all fine till just over the last few days it started spiking on 1st shot of the day. I have the OPV set to just over 9 bars on a blind basket shot.

Now on the 1st shot of the day after a 25 minute startup it spikes to just over 10 bars then straight away goes back down to 9 bars. Shots after that are fine. But if you leave the machine idle for approx 15 minutes it will spike again over 10 bars. I’m using filtered water. I don’t want to have to dissemble the OPV as that’s not want an end user should have to fiddle around with.

DavecUK

drdre89 Welcome to the forum. We worked out it’s a problem with the expansion valve sticking slighty. It clearly only affects some machines. This may be a batch of these valves or perhaps they use multiple suppliers.

If the machine is under warranty and you don’t want to, or don’t feel comfortable lubricating the valve, then the retailer is your best route.

Del_UK

DavecUK

I had a go at mine this morning. The problem was minor with mine, only a .5 bar difference. There was a tiny bit of corrosion/gunk on the inner part of the OPV which I picked off and lubricated the rubber seals. It seams to have sorted the problem but I’ll keep a check on the needle next brew.

drdre89

Thanks DaveCUK. The hesitancy I have is trying to take the plastic tube off of the OPV, as it seems to be stuck on there , plus there is water inside the tube that I don’t want leaking on the internals once I get it off. Would using a flathead screwdriver do the trick to take it off without damaging the tube?

DavecUK

drdre89 The hesitancy I have is trying to take the plastic tube off of the OPV, as it seems to be stuck on there , plus there is water inside the tube that I don’t want leaking on the internals once I get it off. Would using a flathead screwdriver do the trick to take it off without damaging the tube?

I wouldn’t worry about a few drips of water, you can always put a napkin underneath the pipe if you are concerned. It’s important to remove the cable tie….and then put another back on once you have done the job. Once the cable tie is off you should be able to work it off with your fingers…but don’t just pull on it, or it will tear.

JahLaza

drdre89 hi, there was no cable tie on mine it was well stuck on however. I slowly removed the tube by pushing it back with a thumb on either side, the rest of my hand/fingers above the fitting resting on the plate if you can imagine. My only real concern is getting the sealing pad to remain correctly in place after re assembly as you are placing it into the valve housing which is tilted downwards and you’ve no room to play or see with all the stuff around it. When I did it the other day I placed the pad on the spring and placed in that way, hoped for the best! Any suggestions folks?

DavecUK

JahLaza When I did it the other day I placed the pad on the spring and placed in that way, hoped for the best! Any suggestions folks?

I think it will centre the first time it opens and closes…well that’s my theory….😆

Elcarajillo

Better not to use a screwdriver, grip the tube over the fitting between finger and thumb and rotate back and forth to release it. They often syick.

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